Photos from Featherston's Confederacy/ TL-191

[Marklin]

I'm just speculating, at this point, since Turtledove never mentioned other British Colonies. I'd like to see Germany support Indian Independence.

I personally think that the Japanese would be more involved in India than Germany, as India would be closer to the Japanese Sphere of Influence. Maybe Azad Hind is placed in charge of India in TTL?

I also had some ideas regarding the Japanese Empire or USA. Maybe one of the two undergoes a USSR or Yugoslavia type breakup? One of them breaks apart peacefully while the other falls apart violently into conflict-ridden states (Like in Yankee Spring by rvbomally). If the Japanese Empire breaks up, I imagine it still holding onto Korea, While a newly formed CSA and Canada could possibly pop up in North America?

 

[Marklin]

Or maybe the United States makes the South and Canada into Autonomous sectors, and if there is a UN analog, they have their own members in the UN, like OTL Kazakh and Ukrainian SSRs.

 

[Allochronian]

I personally think that the Japanese would be more involved in India than Germany, as India would be closer to the Japanese Sphere of Influence. Maybe Azad Hind is placed in charge of India in TTL?

I also had some ideas regarding the Japanese Empire or USA. Maybe one of the two undergoes a USSR or Yugoslavia type breakup? One of them breaks apart peacefully while the other falls apart violently into conflict-ridden states (Like in Yankee Spring by rvbomally). If the Japanese Empire breaks up, I imagine it still holding onto Korea, While a newly formed CSA and Canada could possibly pop up in North America?

Actually, the US was concerned that the Japanese would have gone after India after taking over the Malaya Peninsula, but they focused on invading Siberia, instead.
http://turtledove.wikia.com/wiki/India

Given that Germany was involved in modernizing China in real-life, after the war, they would want to have another ally/buffer state to deal with a growing Japan.

I view the Japanese Empire as the "Soviet Union" analogue of TL-191. Not in terms of Communism, but in terms of Ultranationalism-FOR THE EMPEROR!-Japanese Supremacy ideology. Eventually, it will become so big that it will collapse into different nations, but the Japanese influence still lingers.

No. No more CSA. Ever. I do see Neo-Condeferatefreedomism still being a problem, but is frowned upon in polite, civilized American society and is met with military suppression and laws against their expression in public.

A newly freed Canada has some chance to occur, but I'd like to imagine that they eventually become new states for the U.S.A., since the Americans are going to have to do whatever it takes to become a superpower and use as much natural resources from the Canadian region as possible.

...and if there is a UN analog, they have their own members in the UN, like OTL Kazakh and Ukrainian SSRs.

I've thought about a U.N.-like analogue existing in TL-191. Sort of.

I'd call it the "International Order for Peace" (I.O. or IOFP) or some kind of other generic name (I know, I know. It sounds pathetic )

USA, Germany, and Japan would be senior members and be given absolute veto.

Next in the I.O. hierarchy would be the rest of the "Allies of the Second Great War":

• Austrian States and/or Hungary
• Ottoman Empire (if it still exists)
• Kingdom of Poland
• Republic of Ukraine
• Republic of Quebec
• Kingdom of Bulgaria
• Republic of Ireland

Etc. Etc. Etc.

The rest of the other nation would follow.

I know that my version of the U.N. may not make any sense, so I apologize in advance. Feel free to correct any mistakes I may have made!

Oh, I would be hilariously great if in this version of the U.N., it has an official international auxiliary language: Esperanto

Haha.

 

[Allochronian]

A scene from the movie "Nassau", which depicts the Caribbean Campaign of the Second Great War, showing U.S. Navy Senior Cook Charles "Charlie" White shooting down a Confederate Hound Dog fighter aircraft during the Confederate invasion of the Bahamas.

*I KNOW it says Pearl Harbor. and Cuba Gooding, Jr.. Just ignore it and pretend it's something else in TL-191!

 

[Marklin]

No. No more CSA. Ever.

Yeah, A country that has been Independent for about 80 to 90 years isn't going to go quietly. It doesn't matter how much the USA wants it back, and if it does, its gonna be long and very, very painful.

Actually, the US was concerned that the Japanese would have gone after India after taking over the Malaya Peninsula, but they focused on invading Siberia, instead.

Yes I remember that, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't try for India in the near future.

Given that Germany was involved in modernizing China in real-life, after the war, they would want to have another ally/buffer state to deal with a growing Japan.

Yeah, I can see this one happening actually, given that Germany never really got as "Cozy" with Japan as OTL. I can honestly see China on Germany's side during the "Shadow War" and probably being the most Hardline Anti-Japanese state in the German/American/Western/RemoveAnime Bloc due to proximity placing them under the greatest threat from the empire and possibly a desire to take back Formosa or other stolen territories from the Japanese.

My personal belief is that the Former CSA is treated like Ukraine was in the USSR, but thats just me.

Perhaps Russia could be the Yugoslavia of this Alt-Cold War, with them not being on anybodies side, but have a government similar to Japan's or Germany's.

 

[Marklin]

A scene from the movie "Nassau", which depicts the Caribbean Campaign of the Second Great War, showing U.S. Navy Senior Cook Charles "Charlie" White shooting down a Confederate Hound Dog fighter aircraft during the Confederate invasion of the Bahamas.

*I KNOW it says Pearl Harbor. and Cuba Gooding, Jr.. Just ignore it and pretend it's something else in TL-191!

Ooh! Video Clips! This is an interesting idea.

 

[Alterwright]

^^^ --- F44 Raptor "Yellow Rose of Texas" - Introduced in 1944, the A44 Raptor was intended to deal with the latest models of Yankee fighters and heavy bombers. It had an innovative design, with counter-rotating props, a tricycle landing gear, and the most firepower to be mounted in a single engine fighter, with 3x 20mm cannons and 4x .50 cal. MGs. Its top speed was 460 MPH. With the tide of the war turning against the Confederacy it was hoped the Raptor could win air supremacy, but the new plane had many teething problems. Later models would improve the fuel injection system and fix other minor issues that plagued the aircraft. By the time most of these issues were dealt with, the war was over and the Confederacy had lost, with too few planes in the air able to make a difference.

@cortz#9 <--- credit for design, line-work, and plane biography, thank you for your permission and work!

https://www.deviantart.com/jimbowyrick1 <--- credit for coloring, shading, and additional decals, thank you for your work!

Thank you guys! This is a beautiful plane that got even prettier! Featherston would be proud!

 

[Alterwright]

My personal belief is that the Former CSA is treated like Ukraine was in the USSR, but thats just me.

How was the Ukraine treated by the USSR after WWII? Or did you mean how the USSR treated the Ukraine before WWII? Can you clarify?

 

[Alterwright]

A scene from the movie "Nassau", which depicts the Caribbean Campaign of the Second Great War, showing U.S. Navy Senior Cook Charles "Charlie" White shooting down a Confederate Hound Dog fighter aircraft during the Confederate invasion of the Bahamas.

*I KNOW it says Pearl Harbor. and Cuba Gooding, Jr.. Just ignore it and pretend it's something else in TL-191!

Off topic here for a second - for as bad as the Pearl Harbor movie was, I still do appreciate the fact that on an emotional and visceral level it captured the intensity of the attack through the perspectives of the people on the ground in a good way - when the POV is not on the main cast (Gooding Jr. to me doesn't really count as the main cast I guess?). Shocking, I know, but I watched this and "Tora Tora Tora" and I gotta say guys as much I do like the 1960s movie more than Bay's movie, it dragged in some places and it can put someone to sleep really easily. "Pearl Harbor" will have you rolling your eyes and face-palming, but at least it won't put you to sleep... when the action gets going.

Okay back on topic.

Again, loving the mentions of the Caribbean here and I am also loving the fact that, through video clips, it can be possible to visualize a Confederate blitz in the Caribbean with their air forces striking US naval bases in, say, Nassau, Port-au-Prince, and then following up with an amphibious landing to quickly secure the islands.

Great initiative on this @Allochronian - please keep up the little additions to this theater of the Second Great War! I now believe its a theater a surprising amount people are interested in.

 

[A Piece of History]

Yeah, A country that has been Independent for about 80 to 90 years isn't going to go quietly. It doesn't matter how much the USA wants it back, and if it does, its gonna be long and very, very painful.

I don't see the former Confederate states ever becoming proper US states again. Over the decades, independent culture and identity has developed within the Confederacy that is separate from the United States. The US can try as they may, but they won't be able to eradicate it, at least not completely. I see the US government being forced to reach some kind of compromise that involves giving the former states autonomy within the existing US government.

But, I can guarantee this. The Confederate States as a country is dead. There is no way the US would ever restore the Confederate government, not after the Second Great War and the Population Reduction.

 

[cortz#9]

SV26 Troop Transporter. Shortly before the beginning of the second Great War, CS spies sent back reports of a new tracked vehicle for carrying infantry into battle. The CS had no such vehicle but realized the usefulness of such a machine and an order for a similar type of vehicle was sent to various automobile companies and several companies submitted proposals for the new vehicle but before any design could be chosen, the war began and it was decided by the high command that there was no time or resources for a new type of SV (support vehicle) to be put into production.

The CS instead did what they believed was the only logical solution and converted old FV26 light barrels into what the CS now called a troop transporter. The Fv26 was one of the first CS tank to be put into general production after the first Great War, there had been some pre-FV26 barrel models that had been built in small numbers but none had been massed produced. The FV26 was not a very advanced design even for a post Great War barrel but the CS had a surplus of such vehicles that had been regulated to training units and state militias across the CS, many had also been sold to Mexico and other Central American nations.

The SV26 TT went into service in 1940 but was quickly recalled after it was discovered that the TT was a death trap for the troops it was supposed to protect due to the nasty habit of the rivets tearing into the passengers it was meant to protect when struck by any type of light artillery round.
Anti-Barrel-Rifle and heavy MG rounds were also known to penetrate the TT's armor and spin around the interior of the vehicle. The SV26 TT was pulled out of service almost as quickly as it had entered service, there were plans to convert the FV38 into a TT but this was over ruled in favor of converting the light barrel into a BK and so the SV26 TT was once again regulated to a training vehicle and a minor footnote in the history of armored warfare.

I was going to make a CS half-track but then realized such a vehicle was probably not something the CSA could afford and since Turtledove never mentioned APC (for either side IIRC) I instead made up a failed experiment instead.
They can't all be gems.

 

[Marklin]

How was the Ukraine treated by the USSR after WWII? Or did you mean how the USSR treated the Ukraine before WWII? Can you clarify?

After WW2. The USSR gave them a seat in the United Nations along with the Kazakh SSR. So I have heard. But I have heard that the USSR seemed to favor Russians over Ukrainians, if how they handled Chernobyl was of any indication.

 

[Alterwright]

I don't see the former Confederate states ever becoming proper US states again. Over the decades, independent culture and identity has developed within the Confederacy that is separate from the United States. The US can try as they may, but they won't be able to eradicate it, at least not completely. I see the US government being forced to reach some kind of compromise that involves giving the former states autonomy within the existing US government.

But, I can guarantee this. The Confederate States as a country is dead. There is no way the US would ever restore the Confederate government, not after the Second Great War and the Population Reduction.

Nope. The United States, above all else, and after... what, four bloody wars? Countless border clashes? The US government and people would want Confederacy dead and gone, buried six feet deep. As hard as the eventual Reconstruction may be (and Reconstruction was hard after the Civil War in our timeline, lets not make heads or tails about it) the US is going to try to enforce their will in some way there. They would rather see the Confederacy gone above anything else. They would need to go through the difficult process of making Confederates into US citizens.

 

[Marklin]

Nope. The United States, above all else, and after... what, four bloody wars? Countless border clashes? The US government and people would want Confederacy dead and gone, buried six feet deep. As hard as the eventual Reconstruction may be (and Reconstruction was hard after the Civil War in our timeline, lets not make heads or tails about it) the US is going to try to enforce their will in some way there. They would rather see the Confederacy gone above anything else. They would need to go through the difficult process of making Confederates into US citizens.

Even if they were able to do this, it would take Decades and many Generations of propaganda just to convince them that the South won't rise again. Just look at OTL, even after about 150 years, there are still many people who are proud of their confederate heritage, now apply that to a TL where the CS was a great power and disappeared 70 years ago, making it still on the mind of many people. And if the US tried to suppress this, it would probably just make the Southerners even more resentful towards the North and also probably make the North look bad in the eyes of the rest of the world. And I think this sums up the rest of my beliefs regarding the CS in TL 191 Post SGW

Now, on to the case about the Americans being unable to keep control of the Confederacy, Canada, and the rest. I think the American occupation will fail for two reasons: (1) it is very costly and (2) it forces the Americans to be hypocrites. First, the cost. The American economy in TL-191 is not the same as our own. It is much weaker, by virtue of being more militaristic and having been heavily damaged during the Second Great War. The Americans are unlikely to get much from the Confederate half, which has been destroyed almost entirely, and while the Americans will likely loot the former CSA, that will only build up resentment to American occupation. There is no Marshall Plan to help rebuild the United States. This will all have to happen on its own, while the Americans maintain a massive army to keep the Confederates (and Canadians) down. Since the Americans are looking for full integration, they cannot withdraw and set up a puppet regime, like the Soviets did in Eastern Europe IOTL. They will have to maintain this massive army. Also consider the costs of a cold war with Japan or Germany (in this case, both). The costs would be tremendous.

Second, while the TL-191 Americans are more militaristic than our own, the occupation would eventually become a political impossibility. The Americans present themselves as the defenders of freedom and liberty, and yet they have massive portions of the continent under military occupation for years, if not decades? Berlin and Tokyo will have a lot of fun pointing this out. Not only that, but the American people themselves would see this as hypocrisy from the government. The line that the Confederates were behind the Population Reduction would only work for so long, especially when generations who were in diapers when Featherston was killed begin to come of age. The Southerners themselves would take up the rallying cry of the Canadians: give us the Constitution, or leave. On the other hand, there would be enough people in the American political establishment who do not want their power threatened by new, voting states, and there would be people (particularly blacks) who do not want the Confederates to have a vote because they do not trust them. Thus, the Americans are forced into a limbo, where they cannot take decisive action one way or another.

In all honesty, I think the Confederacy would eventually be spun off as an independent state, and as would Canada. These would be closely-watched by the Americans, but after the Remembrance generations die off, the younger generations would ask just why they are putting up with such a costly occupation

 

[Alterwright]

SV26 Troop Transporter. Shortly before the beginning of the second Great War, CS spies sent back reports of a new tracked vehicle for carrying infantry into battle. The CS had no such vehicle but realized the usefulness of such a machine and an order for a similar type of vehicle was sent to various automobile companies and several companies submitted proposals for the new vehicle but before any design could be chosen, the war began and it was decided by the high command that there was no time or resources for a new type of SV (support vehicle) to be put into production.

The CS instead did what they believed was the only logical solution and converted old FV26 light barrels into what the CS now called a troop transporter. The Fv26 was one of the first CS tank to be put into general production after the first Great War, there had been some pre-FV26 barrel models that had been built in small numbers but none had been massed produced. The FV26 was not a very advanced design even for a post Great War barrel but the CS had a surplus of such vehicles that had been regulated to training units and state militias across the CS, many had also been sold to Mexico and other Central American nations.

The SV26 TT went into service in 1940 but was quickly recalled after it was discovered that the TT was a death trap for the troops it was supposed to protect due to the nasty habit of the rivets tearing into the passengers it was meant to protect when struck by any type of light artillery round.
Anti-Barrel-Rifle and heavy MG rounds were also known to penetrate the TT's armor and spin around the interior of the vehicle. The SV26 TT was pulled out of service almost as quickly as it had entered service, there were plans to convert the FV38 into a TT but this was over ruled in favor of converting the light barrel into a BK and so the SV26 TT was once again regulated to a training vehicle and a minor footnote in the history of armored warfare.

I was going to make a CS half-track but then realized such a vehicle was probably not something the CSA could afford and since Turtledove never mentioned APC (for either side IIRC) I instead made up a failed experiment instead.
They can't all be gems.

Yeah its too bad that Turtledove never explicitly mentioned APCs. I guess this one will count as a first try gone bad for the first and only time for the Confederacy. Gotta rely on those trucks instead.

 

[Historyman 14]

@Allochronian, I view America Sunbombing South Africa as a step (Or several) too far, especially if it shows the Americans are too cavalier with their nuclear weapons.

As for the South, you are dealing with a nation that been independent for over 80s year, and a culture that is separate from the Yankee culture entirely.

And won't put up with Yankee occupation. Up North, the USA never had a idea of really what to do with Canada. (With the whole point of Canada that the Canadians are NOT Americans. I would think a three-year rebellion would be more then enough proof of it.) The Union is badly damaged by war and overburdened, and would be focus on rebuilding everything. (Such as the the Southern economy is practically non-existent now.)

As for Japan, I would think they focus on Ethiopia and East Africa. (In OTL, they was and even today pretty close. Without any Italian Invasion, this would carry on. Japan would use Ethipoia as a jumping off point to influence East Africa.)

 

[Alterwright]

So I've been working on some collar patches and collar insignia designs for the Freedom Party Guardsmen. The ranks insignia I've made so far only go as high as staff sergeant. These are very much a work in progress, but the colors used here I really like, so they're going to stay I think. I used the SS ranks and runes as a template for where I can possibly start, with an emphasis on simplicity and easy recognition.

^^^ --- Simplified Featherston Cross (St. Andrew Cross) --- worn on the right collar, to denote Freedom Party Guard unit identification and association with the FPG.

^^^ --- Simplified Cross of Honor (Southern Cross of Honor) --- Worn on the right collar to substitute the Featherston Cross, to denote Freedom Party Guardsmen assigned to the Presidential Guard, which were immediately responsible for protecting President Jake Featherston.

^^^ --- Trooper (Private) insignia, Freedom Party Guards --- worn on the left collar, to denote the rank of Trooper.

^^^ --- Assistant Troop Leader (Corporal), Freedom Party Guards --- worn on the left collar, to denote the rank of Assistant Troop Leader.

^^^ --- Trooper Leader (Sergeant), Freedom Party Guards --- worn on the left collar, to denote the rank of Troop Leader.

^^^ --- Senior Troop Leader (Staff Sergeant), Freedom Party Guards --- worn on the left collar, to denote the rank of Senior Troop Leader.

These are still a work in progress.

 

[Allochronian]

@Allochronian, I view America Sunbombing South America as a step (Or several) too far, especially if it shows the Americans are too cavalier with their nuclear weapons.

I never said South America. I said South Africa. I'd imagine that the threat of the United States superbombing the country being more of a bluff than an actual thing, although they could eventually do it if they really wanted to.

@Allochronian

As for the South, you are dealing with a nation that been independent for over 80s year, and a culture that is separate from the Yankee culture entirely.

And won't put up with Yankee occupation. Up North, the USA never had a idea of really what to do with Canada. (With the whole point of Canada that the Canadians are NOT Americans. I would think a three-year rebellion would be more then enough proof of it.) The Union is badly damaged by war and overburdened, and would be focus on rebuilding everything. (Such as the the Southern economy is practically non-existent now.)

I understand you and weaverj's concerns about Confederate culture being too different to ever be part of the USA.

That's the point.

It may never truly be part of it... which is why I'd speculate that the American government is going to do what it takes to destroy it.

How? They will probably start an official immigration policy that will encourage people from Latin America, Africa, and Asia to become U.S. citizens. Granted, it won't be done because America is special and unique (which isn't in TL-191), it will be done because the country is BIG and they need as many citizens as they can to live in the Canadian and Confederate regions in order to create more American loyalty.

I've mentioned before that I could see the possibility of some kind of Free Canadian state being formed, but it is an idea that I disagree with.

What I don't see happening is the Confederacy coming back because NO ONE in the international community is going to want to support a nation where a population reduction occurred. That would be like if a small, Nazi-like country somewhere in Germany was formed after the end of WWII in OTL.

The stigma against the Confederacy existing after the near-successful genocide of Blacks would be too strong at this point.

@Allochronian
As for Japan, I would think they focus on Ethiopia and East Africa. (In OTL, they was and even today pretty close. Without any Italian Invasion, this would carry on. Japan would use Ethipoia as a jumping off point to influence East Africa.)

Yeah, they would.

This would be the cause of great consternation between Germany and Japan, since Africa is part of Germany's turf.

Oh, and I really hated how Turtledove wrote Italy off. Either make them be involved in both Great Wars or give us a good plausible reason as to why they were neutral TWICE!!!

I am of the opinion that Italy should have been written as an example of the alternate history trope "IN SPITE OF A NAIL".

 

[Historyman 14]

I never said South America. I said South Africa. I'd imagine that the threat of the United States superbombing the country being more of a bluff than an actual thing, although they could eventually do it if they really wanted to.



I understand you and weaverj's concerns about Confederate culture being too different to ever be part of the USA.

That's the point.

It may never truly be part of it... which is why I'd speculate that the American government is going to do what it takes to destroy it.

How? They will probably start an official immigration policy that will encourage people from Latin America, Africa, and Asia to become U.S. citizens. Granted, it won't be done because America is special and unique (which isn't in TL-191), it will be done because the country is BIG and they need as many citizens as they can to live in the Canadian and Confederate regions in order to create more American loyalty.

I've mentioned before that I could see the possibility of some kind of Free Canadian state being formed, but it is an idea that I disagree with.

What I don't see happening is the Confederacy coming back because NO ONE in the international community is going to want to support a nation where a population reduction occurred. That would be like if a small, Nazi-like country somewhere in Germany was formed after the end of WWII in OTL.

The stigma against the Confederacy existing after the near-successful genocide of Blacks would be too strong at this point.



Yeah, they would.

This would be the cause of great consternation between Germany and Japan, since Africa is part of Germany's turf.

Oh, and I really hated how Turtledove wrote Italy off. Either make them be involved in both Great Wars or give us a good plausible reason as to why they were neutral TWICE!!!

I am of the opinion that Italy should have been written as an example of the alternate history trope "IN SPITE OF A NAIL".

I meant South Africa, my mistake. I do think South Africa would go ahead with apartheid even with the threat of the Sunbomb once they see it is a buff and they call it. (And it be a safe haven for Freedom Party war criminals and other Confederate exiles just as much as South America was to Nazis and German war criminals after WW2 was.)

And the Union would fail in that. Would the Union do that, try and create a loyal class to keep both the South and Canada under heel? Yes they would. But in the end, it would fail. If anything, you would create a even worst collapse of the USA as everything go for the other's throat. Heck, some in the North would what to rid themselves of the South, seeing it as dragging the USA down.

Well, I will say it saved Italy from a lot of trouble, and when A-H collapses, they would go in to take Trentino and Trieste, and Dalmatia in the name of 'peacekeeping'. (And they don't leave.)

 

[Marklin]

The Population Reduction would probably de-legitimize the idea of a Neo-Freedomite State being supported by the international community, but that doesn't mean it would de-legitimize the CSA as a whole. Remember, the CSA has been independent for some 80 years and it will have produced a lot of other bases for its national identity, many of them positive. There might be some OTL biases here as well, when people in OTL think of the CSA, they think Slavery, when we think TL 191 Confederacy, we think Featherston. We must think about this from the TL 191 POV to make the most sense of this. Not to mention that it had friends in the form of Great Powers in Europe for a long time as well, even if they were downgraded.

If the US does decide to enact Immigration policies, it will only make the North look even worse, feeding into the idea that the US is out to wipe out the former CSA, and these migrants would probably be treated with hostility, especially by the southerners they are trying to replace. And if the US is forced to respond with Violence, then they will be violating their 1st Amendment and, worse, make the international community sympathetic to the CSA (Maybe the Germans, if they liberalize, but the Japanese might not care).