TL-191: After the End

[David bar Elias]

Is Greece considered the birthplace of democracy despite it being a monarchy? Is Constantinople still called that, or was it renamed after the fall of the Ottomans? Does the House of Osman rule the Kingdom of Turkey and still exist by the Interstellar Wars? If not, what happened to them after the overthrow by the Golden Wolves? Why didn't Ezo annex the JWR after the JWR collapsed in 2011? When was Abdul Hamid III coronated? The 1980s chapter said he was coronated in 1981, but the 1990s chapter said he was coronated in 1979.

By 2023, the history of Classical Greece, and specifically of Athens, is an important part of most history programs in different nations. The importance of Classical Greece to the the emergence of democracy is also emphasized in different countries. The status of the government in the modern Kingdom of Greece does not really shape popular views in most nations on the importance of Classical Greece to the history of democracy.

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By 2023, the official name of Constantinople has not been changed with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

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By 2023, Kingdom of Turkey is ruled by a new dynasty that was founded by a former Ottoman general named Hakan Durmaz, an enemy of the Golden Wolves. The surviving members of the former ruling Ottoman dynasty left for exile in the early 2010s in different nations around the world.

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The Republic of Ezo was in no position to launch a military campaign to annex the former Japanese Workers Republic in the early 2010s, since the governments of China, Russia, and the United States were all opposed to a reunified Japanese state.

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The coronation of Abdul Hamid III as Sultan was in 1981, after his older brother, the previous heir to the throne, died in a riding accident in 1979.

 

[David bar Elias]

Out of curiosity does the Mormon church in Hawaii dominate the state like they to Irl Utah? For example, having complicated drinking laws?

Now Irl there are a lot of mormons in Idaho, Arizona, Nevada, and Alberta, especially in the early 1900s. The mormons actually formed a lot of communities in these states and there is a BYU Idaho. Were they also expelled? Does the FLDS (fundamentalist LDS that practice polygamy) still exist?

Does the mormon church still send out missionaries to the mainland US in this timeline? It surprises me how the Mormons managed three large rebellions since the US government could've just blocked incoming immigrants from going to Utah (early Mormonism relied heavily on immigrants from the UK and Scandinavia even when they moved to Utah) and could've monitored proselytizing efforts.

As a person from a Mormon background, i rolled my eyes at how Turtldove wrote Mormonism. For example, in the Book of Mormon there are verses that say nations that rise up against America will perish. But I do say this timeline actually portrayed them accurately in that the Mormon church acts to survive and preserve its interests, irl the mormon church did go through a face where they reconciled and tried to appear more American. That is a part of the reason why irl Mormons are very Republican and patriotic

By 2023, the Mormon Church is definitely influential in the state politics of the Sandwich Islands, although not to the extent as in Utah in our world. The Mormon community within the Sandwich Islands remains concentrated on the Big Island of Hawaii, with smaller communities present elsewhere in the state. The Sandwich Islands don’t prohibit the sale of alcohol, though it’s not sold in the Mormon communities of the Big Island.

The Mormon community of the Sandwich Islands, as well as elsewhere in the United States, is represented in the corridors of US government power by the organization Mormons of the Union, which emerged after the end of the Second Great War and Operation Eagle Claw. The Mormon Church went through a painful process of ideological reform after the disastrous outcomes of the anti-US revolts and the ultimate loss of Utah. By 2023, the leadership of the Mormon Church preaches a doctrine of patriotism and loyalty to the United States.

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Most Mormon missionary activity by 2023 is centered in East Asia, Oceania, and the Pacific states of the Union. There are Mormon missionaries who go to the mainland United States, though the Mormon presence in the rest of the USA remains smaller compared to our world.

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I don’t recall from the series if Turtledove went into any great detail on the Mormon communities of North America outside of Utah. I assume that these communities, barring individuals, did not join the anti-US Mormon Revolts. By 2023, there are Mormon communities throughout the western regions of the United States, though the growth of these communities was negatively impacted by the conflicts between the Mormon rebels and the US government in the early 20th Century.

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I don’t know if the history of fundamentalist offshoots from the official Mormon Church in TTL is closely analogous to what happened in our world. If there were groups similar to the FLDS that emerged after the church’s official prohibition of polygamy in the late 19th Century, the US government, and different state governments, would probably not have tolerated their presence in an early 20th Century that was marred by the anti-US revolts in Utah. By 2023, there aren’t any large fundamentalist Mormon groups in the United States that openly practice polygamy.

Mormon fundamentalist groups lasted longer in Mexico in TTL, which, as in our world, became a destination for some Mormons opposed to the church’s ban on polygamy. The government of Mexico, with encouragement from the US government, enforced a national legal ban against polygamy in the 1950s and 1960s that ultimately led to the dissolution of these Mormon fundamentalist communities.

 

[filrabat]

Minus the little bit of guitars (this is mostly a percussions, horns and accordions song), would this song be passably TL-191, as an experimental if nothing else?

 

[David bar Elias]

I hate to get nitpicky again, but how did Bulgaria acquire Thessaloniki and much of Southern Macedonia without starting a Third/Fourth Balkan War? IOTL, the Struma operation was the action launched by the Bulgarians to occupy Western Thrace, which led to the disarmament and internment of the Greek IV Army Corps in Germany. The impetus of this happening was Romania's entry into WWI, which does not happen ITTL, as a way to secure the Bulgarian Army's flanks against an upcoming Allied offensive that year. This plays out in the context of the National Schism that happened IOTL between PM Eleftherios Venizelos and pro-German King Constantine I over the question of whether to join the war on the side of the Allies or remain neutral. With Constantine willing to pursue neutrality at all costs, giving up territory to a hated enemy will not bode well if the CP were to force their hand and try to light the powder keg into another "damned foolish thing in the Balkans". This also brings in Thessaloniki's annexation into question when the plurality of the population was Jewish, but had a small, sizable, and influential, Bulgarian population. With Venizelos and his followers on the losing end and still being ousted, this does make for the scenario more interesting to consider. On a sidenote, there is a great write-up on Filling the Gaps for how the National Schism folds out. On the mentioning of Romania here, this leads to the next question.

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Also, when did Bulgaria take control of Southern Dobruja? Romania never joins the war, that also will not go easy for them if it were to happen at this time, notwithstanding the minority Romanian population of the region they want to protect, and Romania continuing to press their own claims for Transylvania. Unless nothing in the series itself could lean toward that, then an analogue of the Treaty of Craiova could be likely with it being pressured by the CP; or, it might have been done by mutual consent with the incentive of the two nations. These also aren't reflected in the maps given in the series--but then again, some things in those maps don't match up to some expectations, give or take.
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I've had this previous response in mind, and I'm still suspicious about this one. Does this mean that Queen Marie-Louise of Bourbon-Parma is not his mother? You would think that even with the potential butterfly effects of this series, European royalty would be among the least affected by the POD in terms of existence. (See: British royal family up through GW1). Plus, Simeon wasn't even one of Boris' many middle names. So the closer it is to the POD, the much least affected they are, IMO. Lastly, if so, what is the life of his mother like ITTL?
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It's amazing that relations between Bulgaria and the rest of the CP lasted this long, considering that Ferdinand I hated them more the Entente, and only joined to get back at his former Balkan allies.

I’m replying with the caveat of not knowing Turtledove’s interpretation of the Balkan Wars in the TL-191 series. In TTL, the territorial outcomes of the early 20th Century Balkan Wars were more ultimately favorable to Bulgaria. For instance, Southern Dobruja was never ceded to Romania.

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Tsar Simeon II in TTL to Tsar Boris III in our world. The analogue in TTL to Princess Maria Luisa, of the same name, married someone from another aristocratic family in a different nation.

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The Bulgarian alliance with the Central Powers in the two Great Wars was mostly rooted in mutual interests in containing the Kingdom of Serbia and the Kingdom of Romania. This alliance had its limitations, as the Bulgarians never declared war against the Russian Empire in either of the Great Wars.

 

[THE KINGFISH]

Since the music discussion keeps coming up in this thread, I think I've found a good example of what music in TL-191 would sound like.

So basically I was rediscovering this.... bizarre YouTube cartoon called "Greeny Phatom" (which is a whole 'nother rabbit hole to go down, but anyways) that I used to watch when I was a kid. While I was rewatching one of the episodes, the episode suddenly cut away to a weird music bit featuring music I can only describe as Russian folk music with strong American big band and Caribbean folk influences (I believe that it's a song from Russian singer Eduard Khil - due to his then-meme popularity from the Trololo song, and the fact that he is prominently referenced throughout "Greeny Phatom"). Based off the audio quality and lack of electronic music instruments/digital audio workstations - I reasoned that the song might come from around the 1960s-1970s IOTL (and since the lyrics are Russian - from the Soviet Union).

[Skip to 1:00 to hear music, the rest is really weird and irrelevant to the discussion]

Given what we know about the state of popular music in David's interpretation of TL-191 (The Confederacy's severe discrimination and later genocide of Black Americans butterflied Southern jazz, the blues, R&B, rock music, rap music, etc, while the rest of America is hostile to all other Southern cultural expression such as country and bluegrass) and consumer electronics technology (about 10-20 years behind OTL; assuming on average 15 years behind - that means that media of the 1980s would resemble the late 1960s-early 1970s in how media, film, and audio quality looks and sounds) - I think that this song is a fairly accurate window into popular music in the world of TL-191 in the 1980s. We know that most pop music in TL-191 draws influence from American Tin Pan Alley music, Prussian martial music, Eastern European folk music, and Latin American/Caribbean folk music - and I think that the song in the video sounds similar to most of those types of music and be popular in countries like the United States, the German Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Empire of Brazil, and the Russian Republic. Of course their would be regional variations due to (as David said) a less globalized music market (perhaps more klezmer and martial influence in Germany, more big band sound in America, you get the idea) but overall I think this is what music in TL-191 would sound like.

Also let me know what the song name is, who made it and when, as finding any information on Russian music is really hard.

UPDATE: The song in the video is "Such A Miracle" by Eduard Khil (most likely from around 1970 IOTL; meaning in TL-191's slowed-down consumer technology - such a song could come around about 1985 ITTL). Really, a lot of Eduard Khil's music could fit within TL-191 (even though yes, Eduard Khil himself is past David's cutoff date, as his all his work), and something like the Trololo song ("I Am Very Glad, As I Am Finally Returning Back Home") would not sound out of place to TL-191 listeners if a portal hypothetically opened between OTL and David's interpretation of TL-191.

The song in the Greeny Phatom video is also low-pitched compared to this one, so this might be the correct pitch

 

[Jett-Power]

How is Egypt doing after the fall of the Ottomans? How is Romania doing in this world?

 

[BigAbeRangel]

I’m replying with the caveat of not knowing Turtledove’s interpretation of the Balkan Wars in the TL-191 series. In TTL, the territorial outcomes of the early 20th Century Balkan Wars were more ultimately favorable to Bulgaria. For instance, Southern Dobruja was never ceded to Romania.

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Tsar Simeon II in TTL to Tsar Boris III in our world. The analogue in TTL to Princess Maria Luisa, of the same name, married someone from another aristocratic family in a different nation.

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The Bulgarian alliance with the Central Powers in the two Great Wars was mostly rooted in mutual interests in containing the Kingdom of Serbia and the Kingdom of Romania. This alliance had its limitations, as the Bulgarians never declared war against the Russian Empire in either of the Great Wars.

Respectfully, I disagree. I don't think the outcome of the Balkan Wars would've been any different than OTL, nor would Turtledove have intended such. If Bulgaria won more favorable terms, then that would imply that they won the Second Balkan War, which would open up a whole 'nother can of worms for TTL and actually be problematic for TTL. Plus, in the grand scheme of things, apart from diplomatic events of TTL, Europe isn't too drastically affected until up to GW1. With you being bent on the butterfly effect and me being somewhat of a strict parallelist, this is one where we'd have to agree to disagree here.

 

[BigAbeRangel]

Minus the little bit of guitars (this is mostly a percussions, horns and accordions song), would this song be passably TL-191, as an experimental if nothing else?

Listening to this, this I can imagine being the closest to what fabrika-punk is as being described here, and as the closest to rock ITTL. Fittingly, this could also resemble stomp with the drumbeat, but with a downsized horn section. The aesthetic style could probably be something more emergent from Russia coming along with the former.

 

[BigAbeRangel]

While on the topic of the Balkans, with the Greek National Schism going in favor for the Neutralists instead of the Venizelists, what becomes of the following figures of each of the opposing factions?:
Neutralists
--King Constantine I
--Dimitrios Gounaris
--Ioannis Metaxas
--Queen Sophia of Prussia
Venizelists
--King Alexander
--Pavlos Kountouriotis
--Panagiotis Danglis
--Eleftherios Venizelos

 

[BigAbeRangel]

I was looking at the wikiboxes Jett made and posted on the Photos thread (which if you haven't, you must absolutely do), and recalled that Sudan was under the rule of an Islamist dictatorship ITTL, as a parallel to Sudan under Omar al-Bashir IOTL. This had me wondering: how different of a course does modern Islamic fundamentalism take ITTL with the absence of Saudia Arabia? There may not be Saudi Wahhabism getting traction, but there are other Sunni Salafist fundamentalist strains that could gain traction. Now political Islam isn't anything new, of course, and there's the Ottomans still having their sphere of influence there, but they didn't espouse any explicit fundamentalist ideology. With the Committe of Union and Progress having power, the Ottoman Empire went on a secular path, but using Islam as a political tool on the basis of ethno-religious and racial persecution with their genocides being carried out. May or may not be from there, but could have influence derived from there. Leads me to another likely place of origin: Egypt. Would Sayyid Qutb, or someone else, emerge as a figure of such, be part of an organization similar to the Muslim Brotherhood, and influence theocratic Muslims into waging a violent jihad? Qutb was the chief ideologue of the Muslim Brotherhood, whose far-right, reactionary, ultraconservative, puritanical, and religious nationalist views would influence groups such as Al-Qaeda and ISIL, and for which he was executed by the left-wing nationalist Nasser regime in 1966. I'd like to get your thoughts on it. How likely would say this is? Could this and related strains of Islamism go mainstream in the Middle East and North Africa without Saudi Arabia?

 

[BigAbeRangel]

How's Portugal doing ITTL apart from reforming their colonial empire into the Federation? How did they fare with neutrality during GW1 ITTL? Was there a semi-fascist (semi-actionist ITTL) corporatist dictatorship like IOTL? The general instability of the First Republic would make the 1926 coup inevitable, leading to the creation of the Estado Novo dictatorship of OTL. Was there also something like the Carnation Revolution that ousted said dictatorship?

These questions would be better answered on one of the other threads. To make a long story short, Portugal in TTL was more politically stable in comparison to our world during the early 20th Century. There wasn’t an analogue in TTL to either the Estado Novo regime or the Carnation Revolution.

So it looks like them not joining GW1 actually benefitted them ITTL.

That is arguably the case with Portugal, as well as the Italian Empire in TTL.

I was revisiting this Q&A regarding Portugal after researching their role in WWI, and thought that though while they would definitely benefit form staying neutral, I'd respectfully disagree with this interpretation and thought to present my own plausible argument for such. Even though Portugal's decision to join the war IOTL seemed like a good idea to defend the homeland and their colonies by having the protection of their British allies, it turned out to be a short-sighted decision and led to more chaos and instability in the fragile First Republic. Though staying neutral would have benefited them, I would disagree there as the conditions and chronic instability of the First Republic that led to its fall and eventual transformation into the Estado Novo regime were already present since the beginning, and even before it with the decline of the monarchy. While their entry into the war, along with strongman Sidónio Pais briefly seizing power in a coup and becoming president and prime minister, accelerated its eventual fall, I believe its absence would've only delayed the 1926 coup and would've eventually happened later, especially during the early Great Depression with the rise of actionism.

 

[BigAbeRangel]

The atrocities that were committed by the Russian Empire throughout the Second Great War are still mostly blamed by Russian historians and the general public by 2023 on the Romanov Dynasty or organizations such as the Union of the Russian People, and not on the Imperial Russian Army.

What is the reason for this arrangement? Would it be because the newly formed Republic acquired former Tsarists into their ranks in the face of new existential threat in the form of Japan, and thus make a sort of "Pact of Forgetting" in an effort to promote reconciliation with each other? Sort of makes parallels with how the Western Bloc helped perpetuate the 'clean Wehrmacht' myth during after WWII, and with Spain during the transition to democracy. That would explain why a LEFT-WING government adopted a FAR-RIGHT REVISIONIST standard by being acknowledging but unapologetic about them, despite the fact that ordinary Russians suffered too, along with their leftist forefathers, under the Tsars' grip. Also, wouldn't the victorious Republicans want to vilify everything bad about the Empire and take everything down? This would also explain why the Russian Orthodox Church was able to regain favor in the eyes of the general public and have a revival, despite not being even a generation or two removed from the atrocities they were fully complicit in, and not apologize for their hatred against the Jews and other religious minorities. That, and as well as why there's a sort of 'strained politeness' in relations with the Central Powers. And thus, relations aren't fully fixed, and the army is no longer seen as 'clean' until generations afterwards--and once bygones become bygones after the First Interstellar Expedition. Respectfully, I would disagree with this outcome, and if I were the one writing this, I would've had it as a "take it all down" mentality. Before this, I used to think it didn't make sense with this standard, but I guess I can see now it does a bit.

 

[BigAbeRangel]

Since you mentioned that that the new Russian Republic didn't move towards full reconciliation with their former CP adversaries because they were part of alliances considered unfriendly to them, why didn't their newfound allies in the US help them make overtures and offer to mediate in doing so, as well as making amends with targeted groups under the Empire? It would make sense they're allied to both them and the CP.

 

[GenericUsernameNo1]

Aside from tax havens, which countries are considered to have the freest markets or most business-friendly environment as of 2023?

What are some of the largest companies in the world ITTL? Do German conglomerates like Krupp, Deustche Bank, Bayer, etc. still exist ITTL? What happened to the Japanese zaibatsu companies under the Syndicalists and Ecoists?

 

[David bar Elias]

What is the reason for this arrangement? Would it be because the newly formed Republic acquired former Tsarists into their ranks in the face of new existential threat in the form of Japan, and thus make a sort of "Pact of Forgetting" in an effort to promote reconciliation with each other? Sort of makes parallels with how the Western Bloc helped perpetuate the 'clean Wehrmacht' myth during after WWII, and with Spain during the transition to democracy. That would explain why a LEFT-WING government adopted a FAR-RIGHT REVISIONIST standard by being acknowledging but unapologetic about them, despite the fact that ordinary Russians suffered too, along with their leftist forefathers, under the Tsars' grip. Also, wouldn't the victorious Republicans want to vilify everything bad about the Empire and take everything down? This would also explain why the Russian Orthodox Church was able to regain favor in the eyes of the general public and have a revival, despite not being even a generation or two removed from the atrocities they were fully complicit in, and not apologize for their hatred against the Jews and other religious minorities. That, and as well as why there's a sort of 'strained politeness' in relations with the Central Powers. And thus, relations aren't fully fixed, and the army is no longer seen as 'clean' until generations afterwards--and once bygones become bygones after the First Interstellar Expedition. Respectfully, I would disagree with this outcome, and if I were the one writing this, I would've had it as a "take it all down" mentality. Before this, I used to think it didn't make sense with this standard, but I guess I can see now it does a bit.

One of the reasons for this development in the Russian Republic was because of the trajectory of the Second Russian Civil War. The republican forces would not have won this conflict if there had not been widespread defections to their cause from Russian soldiers and military officers who had served in the former Imperial Russian Army. Under these conditions, the government of the Russian Republic was not going to approve an educational curriculum that emphasized the participation of the former Imperial Russian Army in the atrocities committed by Russian forces in the Second Great War. This was not a morally or factually correct part of the Russian Republic’s education system or politics of memory.

 

[generaldavis]

What ends up happening to Himura Tamiko? Is she ultimately the last leader of the JWR?

Is there discrimination in Ezo towards the Japanese refugees? Also is there a large linguistic difference between the Japanese language in Japan and Ezo? Does Ezo eventually develop its own identity similar to how in irl young Taiwanese view themselves as Taiwanese instead of Chinese?

What's the State of Ryukyu like? Is there still Japanese influence and do refugees try swimming there from Japan? Geopolitically how does it affect the US's relationship with East Asia?

 

[David bar Elias]

What ends up happening to Himura Tamiko? Is she ultimately the last leader of the JWR?

Is there discrimination in Ezo towards the Japanese refugees? Also is there a large linguistic difference between the Japanese language in Japan and Ezo? Does Ezo eventually develop its own identity similar to how in irl young Taiwanese view themselves as Taiwanese instead of Chinese?

What's the State of Ryukyu like? Is there still Japanese influence and do refugees try swimming there from Japan? Geopolitically how does it affect the US's relationship with East Asia?

Himura Tamiko was the last leader of the Japanese Worker’s Republic. After the collapse of the JWR in the Japanese Spring in the early 2010s, Himura fled into exile with her family in Switzerland.

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There isn’t official discrimination in the Republic of Ezo against Japanese refugees.

There are linguistic differences that develop between the Japanese language spoken in the Ecological Union and Japanese language spoken in the Republic of Ezo throughout the duration of the Ecological Union.

The Republic of Ezo eventually develops its own distinct national identity, albeit with the official goal of reclaiming the rest of the Home Islands.

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By 2023, the US state of Ryukyu Islands still has a strong Japanese influence. The state does not receive as many refugees from the Home Islands as the Republic of Ezo. The state hosts several US military bases that are primarily focused on the Ecological Union.

 

[David bar Elias]

I was looking at the wikiboxes Jett made and posted on the Photos thread (which if you haven't, you must absolutely do), and recalled that Sudan was under the rule of an Islamist dictatorship ITTL, as a parallel to Sudan under Omar al-Bashir IOTL. This had me wondering: how different of a course does modern Islamic fundamentalism take ITTL with the absence of Saudia Arabia? There may not be Saudi Wahhabism getting traction, but there are other Sunni Salafist fundamentalist strains that could gain traction. Now political Islam isn't anything new, of course, and there's the Ottomans still having their sphere of influence there, but they didn't espouse any explicit fundamentalist ideology. With the Committe of Union and Progress having power, the Ottoman Empire went on a secular path, but using Islam as a political tool on the basis of ethno-religious and racial persecution with their genocides being carried out. May or may not be from there, but could have influence derived from there. Leads me to another likely place of origin: Egypt. Would Sayyid Qutb, or someone else, emerge as a figure of such, be part of an organization similar to the Muslim Brotherhood, and influence theocratic Muslims into waging a violent jihad? Qutb was the chief ideologue of the Muslim Brotherhood, whose far-right, reactionary, ultraconservatist, puritanical, and religious nationalist views would influence groups such as Al-Qaeda and ISIL, and for which he was executed by the left-wing nationalist Nasser regime in 1966. I'd like to get your thoughts on it. How likely would say this is? Could this and related strains of Islamism go mainstream in the Middle East and North Africa without Saudi Arabia?

I’m answering with the caveat that this is not necessarily what Turtledove envisioned in the TL-191 series, but is the case in TTL.

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One difference in the Muslim world in TTL compared to our world was the survival of the Ottoman Empire and its victory in the First Great War. The centers of religious power and authority within the world of Sunni Islam remained in the Ottoman Empire throughout most of the 20th Century. The Ottoman Empire also exercised religious influence on Sunni religious centers outside of the empire, such as at Al-Azhar University in the Kingdom of Egypt. The survival of the Ottoman Empire also meant that the office and institution of the caliph remained tied to the rulers of the empire.

There was not an equivalent to the Muslim Brotherhood in TTL, although there were different organizations in Sunni Muslim nations that tried to function in political, social, and economic roles, particularly outside of the Ottoman Empire. None of these different national organizations had the international influence that the Muslim Brotherhood did in our world.

Salafism was a marginal religious way of life in the Ottoman Empire, and in other Muslim nations, throughout most of the 20th Century. Salafi communities, where they existed in the Ottoman Empire, were not involved in politics and were withdrawn from public life. This was a legacy of the military suppression by the Ottomans of Salafi rebels in the Arabian Peninsula after the end of the First Great War.

The governments of the Ottoman Empire exercised fairly tight control over the Sunni Muslim religious establishment throughout most of the 20th Century. While the different schools of Sunni religious jurisprudence were tolerated in the empire, the governments of the empire stressed the importance of loyalty to the state to the leaders of the different Sunni communities, the governments of the Ottoman Empire were not opposed to religious Islamic life, and took seriously the responsibility of tasks such as facilitating the annual Hajj.

The ideologues who were ultimately responsible for the Sunni religious extremism that manifested in the late 20th Century and early 21st Century in our world don’t exist in TTL.

Sunni religious extremism was ultimately shaped in TTL by the ascent to power in the Ottoman Empire of Sultan Abdul Hamid III in the 1980s. Abdul Hamid III hated all non-Sunni Muslim religions and ethnic groups in the empire, and proved to be supportive of Sunni religious organizations that emerged in the 1980s that articulated similar ideologies, such as the disparate soldiers circle groups that eventually coalesced into the Golden Wolves. Unfortunately, the influence and power of these kinds of groups only grew following the Ottoman military defeats in the Russo-Kazakh War in the 1980s and the Kashmir War in the 1990s.

The Golden Wolves and similar organizations were viewed in-universe in different nations as the Ottoman equivalents of the former Union of the Russian People, as extremist groups under the control of the central government. These assumptions outside of the Ottoman Empire changed in the early 2010s, after Rifat Macar, the leader of the Golden Wolves, overthrew the regime of Abdul Hamid III and tried to seize control of the empire, and the position of caliph, for himself.

 

[David bar Elias]

Since you mentioned that that the new Russian Republic didn't move towards full reconciliation with their former CP adversaries because they were part of alliances considered unfriendly to them, why didn't their newfound allies in the US help them make overtures and offer to mediate in doing so, as well as making amends with targeted groups under the Empire? It would make sense they're allied to both them and the CP.

Because the Russian Republic did not request this kind of diplomatic assistance from the United States.

The United States has cordial diplomatic ties to the German Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire by 2023, but does not have a formal military alliance with either great power.

 

[BigAbeRangel]

One of the reasons for this development in the Russian Republic was because of the trajectory of the Second Russian Civil War. The republican forces would not have won this conflict if there had not been widespread defections to their cause from Russian soldiers and military officers who had served in the former Imperial Russian Army. Under these conditions, the government of the Russian Republic was not going to approve an educational curriculum that emphasized the participation of the former Imperial Russian Army in the atrocities committed by Russian forces in the Second Great War. This was not a morally or factually correct part of the Russian Republic’s education system or politics of memory.

That does make more sense and clear up that. And I thought all those that defected and disillusioned from the Tsarist forces from the younger generation would all universally become left-wingers, but I guess not.