An Age of Miracles: The Revival of Rhomanion
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I think I remember an update where it was mentioned that China's Muslims bow towards Beijing rather than Mecca, that mudpit in the far west, and consider the Prophet to have been a man of Chinese descent.
A nice tool for control IMO, since it adds prestige and legitimacy to the Emperor in the eyes of a Chinese Muslim.
I don't think it works that way. Muslim presence (only in the higher-ups level and not so anymore anymore even in those) is negligible. The very few muslims are so assimilated they have distorted their religion to be more "chinese". A true muslim (like Uyghurs) would be baffled by these changes made by those people, so there's no added prestige and legitimacy for true muslims, but only inside the court.
Interesting (and to expected). Poitou could be a target, La Rochela (La Rochelle) is a good port. Other parts I don't know a move against Lotharingia seems unlikely (for Calais and Bourgogne-Lorraine), but the referral to the HRE... Scotland doesn't seem really worth the trouble and the EAN would pull out of the war against Russia almost instantly.
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Given that OTL Hui are more or less Chinese anyway, I don't see those steps as necessary at all. However, other posters are right in noting that Hui are seen as apostates and heretics by more orthodox Muslims.
As for firearms, the ruling class would extensively use firearms against the Northern Yuan, just like the Manchus did against the Oirat tribes living in the Dzungarian Basin. They don't need to arm their peasantry, just their mostly Timurid cavalrymen.
hello there new here and i love the timeline one thing that nags me though is the when i reached and read about the sack of cairo where 250,000 were killed by the ethiopians i was not surprised that andreas only gave the ethiopians a slap on the wrist. after all they were allies.
the response i was waiting for was the for muslim world to have their anger directed towards the rhomans or ethiopians or both for taking jerusalem and the massacre of 250,000 in cairo and mecca being threatened by christians(ethiopians). sure i understand that rhomans did not conquer jerusalem in the name of faith but the sight of the hospitaller order soldiers taking the wall would bring up memories of the 1st crusade taking jerusalem to any of the citizens or soldiers who survived thus making the muslims at least think it's somehow faith realated.
and there is the slaughter of the 250,000 in cairo by the ethiopians and also threatening MECCA the holiest of holy's for the muslim sure there was a jihad called for it's defence where it ultimately failed. and there was the 250,000 people massacred it should have earned the ethiopians the hate of the muslims but i did not find such reaction surely this 2 events should already known by the muslim world was caused by the ethiopians since they threatened mecca itself and the survivors of the cairo would have told of the story of the massacre when they fled to other muslim states.
overall i was expecting a massive reaction from the muslim world after these 3 events
1.MECCA threatened (by christians) although the jihad to defend this failed it should have engrave the ethiopians in the muslims minds as the ones who threatened MECCA
2.jerusalem falls- again the sight of a holy order the knights hospitaller taking the wall of jerusalem should have stirred up memories of the 1st crusade what with the big cross on their clothing or sheilds
3.250,000 massacred- even if some of these are copt's the mulsims still should have reacted strongly about it and with the survivors will probably point that the ethiopians was the culprit
these three events should have shaken the muslim world and when the 1st crusade took jerusalem the muslim's certainly did not forget about retaking it back and when it was retaken the catholics sure did not waste any time in planning to take it back so i am assuming that muslims already are planning on retaking jerusalem and cairo plus avenging the 250,000 as i see it now the ottoman empire is the only powerful state left in the middle east close to jerusalem the other muslim states nearby will probably fall within it's influence maybe one day they will avenge this 3 humiliating events
the response i was waiting for was the for muslim world to have their anger directed towards the rhomans or ethiopians or both for taking jerusalem and the massacre of 250,000 in cairo and mecca being threatened by christians(ethiopians). sure i understand that rhomans did not conquer jerusalem in the name of faith but the sight of the hospitaller order soldiers taking the wall would bring up memories of the 1st crusade taking jerusalem to any of the citizens or soldiers who survived thus making the muslims at least think it's somehow faith realated.
and there is the slaughter of the 250,000 in cairo by the ethiopians and also threatening MECCA the holiest of holy's for the muslim sure there was a jihad called for it's defence where it ultimately failed. and there was the 250,000 people massacred it should have earned the ethiopians the hate of the muslims but i did not find such reaction surely this 2 events should already known by the muslim world was caused by the ethiopians since they threatened mecca itself and the survivors of the cairo would have told of the story of the massacre when they fled to other muslim states.
overall i was expecting a massive reaction from the muslim world after these 3 events
1.MECCA threatened (by christians) although the jihad to defend this failed it should have engrave the ethiopians in the muslims minds as the ones who threatened MECCA
2.jerusalem falls- again the sight of a holy order the knights hospitaller taking the wall of jerusalem should have stirred up memories of the 1st crusade what with the big cross on their clothing or sheilds
3.250,000 massacred- even if some of these are copt's the mulsims still should have reacted strongly about it and with the survivors will probably point that the ethiopians was the culprit
these three events should have shaken the muslim world and when the 1st crusade took jerusalem the muslim's certainly did not forget about retaking it back and when it was retaken the catholics sure did not waste any time in planning to take it back so i am assuming that muslims already are planning on retaking jerusalem and cairo plus avenging the 250,000 as i see it now the ottoman empire is the only powerful state left in the middle east close to jerusalem the other muslim states nearby will probably fall within it's influence maybe one day they will avenge this 3 humiliating events
Arguably the strongest Muslim nation, the ottomans are new and have a personal vendetta against the Timirids and Samarkand. There aren't very many others who are in any position to react. Iberia and Africa have their own rivalries. Though I think quite a few pirates from North Africa had plenty of revenge. Anything outside of the Mediterranean probably doesn't care about Mecca or Jerusalem all that much.
Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong though.
Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong though.
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Jerusalem, maybe, but Mecca?
I doubt any good Muslim doesn't care about Mecca that much - but it might be hard to argue that Ethiopia is a threat to it.
I'm fairly sure the Ethiopians inspired a fair amount of anger for their actions in Cairo, but it might be worth noting that medieval and early middle cities being taken by force usually involved a lot of blood. So it might not be very good at inspiring panIslamic hate of Ethiopia.
And thinking of the Crusades because the Hospitalers are involved . . . some might think that, but I don't see that sweeping the Muslim world. Especially when the bulk of the forces are not Catholic.
I doubt any good Muslim doesn't care about Mecca that much - but it might be hard to argue that Ethiopia is a threat to it.
I'm fairly sure the Ethiopians inspired a fair amount of anger for their actions in Cairo, but it might be worth noting that medieval and early middle cities being taken by force usually involved a lot of blood. So it might not be very good at inspiring panIslamic hate of Ethiopia.
And thinking of the Crusades because the Hospitalers are involved . . . some might think that, but I don't see that sweeping the Muslim world. Especially when the bulk of the forces are not Catholic.
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This, and it's probably reason enough why Ethiopia didn't just come down on Mecca like Zeus to a poor smuck who disrespected him. Ethiopia may be looking to be a more modern state (at least by Orthodox standards), but no state can handle the power of all Islam coming down on it or its friends because they took the Holiest City in all Islam.
Isn't Mecca owned by the hardliner Hedjaz? They are the ones who constantly agitate for jihads, aren't they?
Pretty sure that's because they didn't want to be conquered by their fellow Muslims. Instead they wanted the attention on the Christians. Then again maybe they have a history with different religions that I don't know about. Now though, Rhomania is stabilizing and Ethiopia is consolidating. Not to mention more valuable ventures in the East Indies.
isn't hate part of human nature? anyway im not hoping for a quick response after the 3 events i mentioned. there were reactions that was mentioned but all were directionless. im hoping that a backlash will happen somewhere down the road and after reading more i see the romans and ethiopians expanding their trade east with muslim merchants hating them because they fear losing their trade monopoly
all in all if ever a brilliant muslim leader rises he can use this as a rallying call im pretty sure the chance to retake jerusalem and stick it up the romans will appeal to a lot of muslim's since the way i see it they suffered one setback after the other from the marinids to the mamlukes
Islam has suffered lots of setbacks in this time line, many of them self inflicted.
The events in Egypt will probably not be seen as Christian vs Moslems so much as, see what happens when you revolt and loose.
You seem to be looking at this through a lens of modern radical islam, or maybe you just want a jihad.
The events in Egypt will probably not be seen as Christian vs Moslems so much as, see what happens when you revolt and loose.
You seem to be looking at this through a lens of modern radical islam, or maybe you just want a jihad.
im just hoping and crossing my fingers something interesting happens down the road regarding about the situation in the middle east. i'm looking at it in the perspective of the muslim's point of view. so yeah maybe i'm expecting a jihad or something happening. i think every action has consequences down the road
...I expected for someone to have latched onto Basileus444's outright statement that the Mandate of Heaven is about to change in China, but for some reason you're focusing on screwing the Muslim world even more?
On a related tangent, we can only hope that social upheaval in China might lead to some sort of modernization. IOTL we had the Qing hanging around until the 1900's, and look how that turned out.
Will there be dialects specific to England or France? Will a standard dialect be nailed down any time soon? Until that formally happens, I'd expect the "standard" to be whatever the king speaks, so...the langues d'roi?
The Romans are using the carrot much more often than the stick, since the population of Rhomania in the East is 95% local, 4% mixed, and 1% Imperial heartlander. But Greek is the language of government and commerce, so the advantages of learning Greek and converting to Orthodoxy make for a pretty juicy carrot. So while the rural peasantry are practically untouched by romanization, the upper and middle classes are a different story.
A hundred years ago Korea could field a powerful navy that could go toe to toe with the wokou, but the nomad threat to the north diverted resources. So Korea isn't a total recluse, but virtually all overseas trade is solely with the Cham and it is a fraction of what it was a century ago. Right now it is a muttering vassal of Tieh China, although its mutterings are drowned out by the Cham's significantly louder rumblings.
There are the OTL Hui, and there is Chinese 'court' Islam, whose practioners number in the few thousand at most and isn't considered Muslim even by the Hui.
An important thing to remember is that the Ethiopian attack on Mecca came at the tail end of a jihad. The Ethiopians had spent the last several decades grinding down the Somali, Swahili, Yemeni, and Hedjazi and the attack was Ethiopia's way of saying 'piss off already'. So by the time it happened the local Muslims had already shot their bolt, and when the Mamelukes tried to intervene the Romans threatened to invade.
As for the Roman conquest of Jerusalem, Andreas Niketas killed the Mamelukes in the process. The Marinids did start waging the 'sea jihad' but simple geography meant their victims were mainly Iberians, Arletians, and Italians. The Timurids and Ottomans were too busy glaring at each other, plus the Ottoman Sultan had campaigned briefly against Andreas Niketas and didn't get utterly smashed solely because Andreas didn't go for the kill. And the Ottoman threats against the Omani drove them into the arms of the Ethiopians and Romans for protection.
Those are the specific arguments why there was no mass Muslim reaction to those events. My general argument though is that I don't see why the Muslim world would be more responsive and unified against threats to its holy cities any more than the Christian world was IOTL.
The Hedjaz and the Najd are currently ruled by the House of Saud which took over from the hardliners. For a while under Andreas Niketas they paid a token tribute of a couple of fine Arabian stallions a year to the White Palace but that was quietly dropped during his less scary successors. Their main concern is staying independent, which means not antagonizing their much larger neighbors. The Saudi lean towards the Romans though, since the Ottomans have expressed interest in becoming Sharifs of Mecca.
A lot of the damage done to the Dar al-Islam has been self-inflicted. Four of the five main Muslim powers of 1300 to 1500, the Mamelukes, Ottomans, Jalayirids/Persians, and Timurids expended much of their energy fighting each other. The Romans never had to fight the Ottomans and Mamelukes at the same time, which was good for them considering how hard of a time they had during the Time of Troubles fighting the Abbasids and Ottomans. The fifth are the Marinids, which incidentally can be considered Islam's success story for the time in question.
The standard Triune dialect will be the court dialect, but there will be regional dialects. It'll probably end up like the modern British government, complicated, based on local tradition, and with nothing written down.
A hundred years ago Korea could field a powerful navy that could go toe to toe with the wokou, but the nomad threat to the north diverted resources. So Korea isn't a total recluse, but virtually all overseas trade is solely with the Cham and it is a fraction of what it was a century ago. Right now it is a muttering vassal of Tieh China, although its mutterings are drowned out by the Cham's significantly louder rumblings.
There are the OTL Hui, and there is Chinese 'court' Islam, whose practioners number in the few thousand at most and isn't considered Muslim even by the Hui.
An important thing to remember is that the Ethiopian attack on Mecca came at the tail end of a jihad. The Ethiopians had spent the last several decades grinding down the Somali, Swahili, Yemeni, and Hedjazi and the attack was Ethiopia's way of saying 'piss off already'. So by the time it happened the local Muslims had already shot their bolt, and when the Mamelukes tried to intervene the Romans threatened to invade.
As for the Roman conquest of Jerusalem, Andreas Niketas killed the Mamelukes in the process. The Marinids did start waging the 'sea jihad' but simple geography meant their victims were mainly Iberians, Arletians, and Italians. The Timurids and Ottomans were too busy glaring at each other, plus the Ottoman Sultan had campaigned briefly against Andreas Niketas and didn't get utterly smashed solely because Andreas didn't go for the kill. And the Ottoman threats against the Omani drove them into the arms of the Ethiopians and Romans for protection.
Those are the specific arguments why there was no mass Muslim reaction to those events. My general argument though is that I don't see why the Muslim world would be more responsive and unified against threats to its holy cities any more than the Christian world was IOTL.
The Hedjaz and the Najd are currently ruled by the House of Saud which took over from the hardliners. For a while under Andreas Niketas they paid a token tribute of a couple of fine Arabian stallions a year to the White Palace but that was quietly dropped during his less scary successors. Their main concern is staying independent, which means not antagonizing their much larger neighbors. The Saudi lean towards the Romans though, since the Ottomans have expressed interest in becoming Sharifs of Mecca.
A lot of the damage done to the Dar al-Islam has been self-inflicted. Four of the five main Muslim powers of 1300 to 1500, the Mamelukes, Ottomans, Jalayirids/Persians, and Timurids expended much of their energy fighting each other. The Romans never had to fight the Ottomans and Mamelukes at the same time, which was good for them considering how hard of a time they had during the Time of Troubles fighting the Abbasids and Ottomans. The fifth are the Marinids, which incidentally can be considered Islam's success story for the time in question.
The standard Triune dialect will be the court dialect, but there will be regional dialects. It'll probably end up like the modern British government, complicated, based on local tradition, and with nothing written down.
Mecca (where no infidel is even permitted to enter) seems a bit more extreme than Jerusalem, but simply being nearby . . . naaaah. The Islamic world seems caught up in other things.
But it does, if anyone ever wants to, provide a potential cause for a jihad - so Ethiopia should not push its luck.
But it does, if anyone ever wants to, provide a potential cause for a jihad - so Ethiopia should not push its luck.
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