Any changes to Timeline-191/Southern Victory

[YusaEmi]

And again the canonical evidence is that the US built 3 new aircraft carriers during the Sinclair Administration

Before proceeding further I think we need to ask where did these extra carriers go?

Assuming that one of them is the USS Sandwich Islands, the other 2 are not noted in the story afterwards and it's very noticeable during the Second Great war as the Rememberance is only operating in the Atlantic alongside the USS Sandwich Islands and it was left alone as the sole aircraft carrier in the Pacific before it's loss at Midway.

I am not saying that the US only had the Rememberance and the Sandwich Islands in 1942. But it's a bit strange that if by 1930 they already had 4 carriers they would be hard pressed enough a decade later to allow the Rememberance to operate alone and also willingly send it on what amounted to a suicide mission. (With the assumption that the US would of course build more ships in the interwar period between the Pacific War and GWII especially since the budget cuts were rescinded)

 

[bguy]

Before proceeding further I think we need to ask where did these extra carriers go?

Assuming that one of them is the USS Sandwich Islands, the other 2 are not noted in the story afterwards and it's very noticeable during the Second Great war as the Rememberance is only operating in the Atlantic alongside the USS Sandwich Islands and it was left alone as the sole aircraft carrier in the Pacific before it's loss at Midway.

I am not saying that the US only had the Rememberance and the Sandwich Islands in 1942. But it's a bit strange that if by 1930 they already had 4 carriers they would be hard pressed enough a decade later to allow the Rememberance to operate alone and also willingly send it on what amounted to a suicide mission. (With the assumption that the US would of course build more ships in the interwar period between the Pacific War and GWII especially since the budget cuts were rescinded)

Was there any reason to believe the Remembrance and the Sandwich Islands were the only carriers the US had operating in the Atlantic in 1942? I just assumed they were a task force that was specifically assigned for raiding the Confederate coast and protecting Bermuda and the Bahamas, while the rest of the US carriers were with the main Atlantic Fleet (which was probably deployed further north to guard New York/Boston/Halifax against any sortie by the Royal Navy. (The US would certainly prioritize protecting the northeast over the Sandwich Islands, so it would make sense that most of the US fleet strength would be kept in the northeast.)

 

[YusaEmi]

Was there any reason to believe the Remembrance and the Sandwich Islands were the only carriers the US had operating in the Atlantic in 1942?

I was never implying that and I do not believe they were the only carriers the US possessed.

I'm just noting a potential continuity issue with the story itself since we're given the impression the US is hard pressed on flattops during the first year of the second great war.

Irregardless, it was highly irresponsible to leave Rememberance as the sole operational carrier in the Pacific.

 

[bguy]

Irregardless, it was highly irresponsible to leave Rememberance as the sole operational carrier in the Pacific.

Agreed. Maybe the US originally did have other carriers stationed in the Pacific, but they were lost in the initial Japanese attack. (The book does describe fighting near the Sandwich Islands before the Remembrance is sent to the Pacific.)

"'The Empire of Japan has declared war on the United States, citing their provocative policy in the Central Pacific. The United States claim to have inflicted heavy losses on carrier-based aircraft attacking the Sandwich Islands, but the Japanese dismiss this report as just another U.S. lie."'
-Return Engagement, Chapter 6

"The Japanese were making menacing moves against the Sandwich Islands."
-Return Engagement, Chapter 7

If the US had eight aircraft carriers at the start of the Second Great War, it might have six stationed in the Atlantic and two in the Pacific. (The British being regarded as a greater threat than the Japanese.) And if both Pacific carriers were lost in the initial fighting around the Sandwich Islands (plausible enough if Japan attacks the Sandwich Islands in force), then it could create a situation where the US feels it can only afford to send one carrier for the Pacific, since sending any more than that from the Atlantic Fleet would risk leaving the more populated east coast inadequately defended.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

One thing i'm curious about is the acquisition of Cuba by the CSA.

Now, in OTL, the United Stats offered multiple time to buy Cuba from the Spanish Empire, and all times they were refused.
During the 1860-1870s, Cuba was fighting its own Revolutionary war whilst Spain was fighting its own Civil War. Grant ffered to buy Cuba in this time, I think, and still the Spanish refused. In fact, Spain seemed to send in over 100000 soldiers, if not far more, just to retain control over the Colony.

So it does befuddle me that during OTL they were willing to sacrifice so much to retain control of the Colony, whereas in TL191 they just simply seem to give up and sell it...

 

[PsychoNeo]

One thing i'm curious about is the acquisition of Cuba by the CSA.

Now, in OTL, the United Stats offered multiple time to buy Cuba from the Spanish Empire, and all times they were refused.
During the 1860-1870s, Cuba was fighting its own Revolutionary war whilst Spain was fighting its own Civil War. Grant ffered to buy Cuba in this time, I think, and still the Spanish refused. In fact, Spain seemed to send in over 100000 soldiers, if not far more, just to retain control over the Colony.

So it does befuddle me that during OTL they were willing to sacrifice so much to retain control of the Colony, whereas in TL191 they just simply seem to give up and sell it...

Perhaps Spain is willing to sell to the CSA to ensure the US doesn't become too powerful? Or, perhaps we can change the Second Mexican War into a "Cuban War", where the CS buys or invades Cuba and the US gets involved.

 

[Lalli]

Perhaps Spain is willing to sell to the CSA to ensure the US doesn't become too powerful? Or, perhaps we can change the Second Mexican War into a "Cuban War", where the CS buys or invades Cuba and the US gets involved.

For me it seemed imperialist proudness. They once owned almost whole Americas and now were just holding couple islands in Americas so they wanted keep that no matter what was a price.

 

[Dude-a-Buck]

1. Different casus belli for the Second Mexican War. (I can't see Mexico being willing to sell off two of its states like that, and the Confederates trying to build a transcontinental railroad across Sonora and Chihuahua also seems really implausible. Such a railroad would be incredibly difficult giving the terrain and hostile local population, and I don't see how it could ever be profitable given that Confederate trade with the Pacific was negligible.) As a possible alternative maybe Blaine, upon assuming the presidency, has the US back a military coup in Mexico that sees Porfirio Diaz overthrow the Imperial Mexican government. Longstreet, not willing to see a pro-US government take power in Mexico (which would mean the CSA is surrounded), dispatches an expeditionary force to Mexico to restore the Imperial government. Blaine responds with an ultimatum insisting that the Confederates withdraw their troops from Mexico. Longstreet refuses and the war goes from there.

Assuming the US does win the Second Mexican War due to England not getting involved, would a full re-absorbing of the CSA be possible considering they would only have been independent for less then 20 years at this point?

 

[Ana Luciana II]

Three major issues I had with the series.
1 - For a series which deals with a victorious Confederacy there aren’t nearly enough Black POV characters. Turtledove seems to have a soft spot for writing old white men (I wonder why…) and some of them are interesting but the series would have really benefited from having more black characters, especially more Northern black characters in positions of authority, so as to create a greater contrast between North-South. It’s been a while since I read the series but do we ever get a black POV character from the North?
2 - Less repetition/more action. Once the Great War trilogy wraps up Turtledove has a real problem with boring chapters that don’t go anywhere and focusing on boring characters who don’t do anything. The wheels start to come off during American Empire and by the end of Settling Accounts the series is basically unreadable. Take Blood & Iron which is a really good book once things start actually happening (the Confederate election is electrifying!) but which meanders for about 100 pages spent with Sam Carsten getting sunburned, Lucien Galtier selling a field, and Jake Featherston painting!
3) I hate Sam Carsten. Sam Carsten might be the most dull character in any work of fiction. Have him get blown to bits during American Front and the series immediately becomes a 10/10.

 

[Lalli]

Three major issues I had with the series.
1 - For a series which deals with a victorious Confederacy there aren’t nearly enough Black POV characters. Turtledove seems to have a soft spot for writing old white men (I wonder why…) and some of them are interesting but the series would have really benefited from having more black characters, especially more Northern black characters in positions of authority, so as to create a greater contrast between North-South. It’s been a while since I read the series but do we ever get a black POV character from the North?
2 - Less repetition/more action. Once the Great War trilogy wraps up Turtledove has a real problem with boring chapters that don’t go anywhere and focusing on boring characters who don’t do anything. The wheels start to come off during American Empire and by the end of Settling Accounts the series is basically unreadable. Take Blood & Iron which is a really good book once things start actually happening (the Confederate election is electrifying!) but which meanders for about 100 pages spent with Sam Carsten getting sunburned, Lucien Galtier selling a field, and Jake Featherston painting!
3) I hate Sam Carsten. Sam Carsten might be the most dull character in any work of fiction. Have him get blown to bits during American Front and the series immediately becomes a 10/10.

And Turltedove could had used too some European POVs too. When I checked POV list on fandom wikia, there barely was anyone outside of North America. Perhaps some of these dull POVs could had replaced with Europeans and South Americans.

 

[Ana Luciana II]

And Turltedove could had used too some European POVs too. When I checked POV list on fandom wikia, there barely was anyone outside of North America. Perhaps some of these dull POVs could had replaced with Europeans and South Americans.

Yes! There’s mentions of wars in South America raging through the 1920s - let’s see ‘em! I’d also have loved some Japanese and Chinese POV characters as we have basically no idea what’s going on over there.

 

[Lalli]

Yes! There’s mentions of wars in South America raging through the 1920s - let’s see ‘em! I’d also have loved some Japanese and Chinese POV characters as we have basically no idea what’s going on over there.

And too German, British, French and Russian characters. Even if there would had been one military officer and one civilian from each one.

 

[bguy]

Assuming the US does win the Second Mexican War due to England not getting involved, would a full re-absorbing of the CSA be possible considering they would only have been independent for less then 20 years at this point?

I think it would be very difficult. That's a whole generation that has grown up in the South thinking of themselves as an independent country and having no loyalty or affection for the United States, and we also have to assume that a lot of Southern Unionists that once existed in the southern states must have fled to the US once Confederate independence was achieved.

I also never got the impression that Blaine intended to try and take the entire Confederacy. He seemed to want a short, easy war with his main goal being to see the Confederates contained and humbled and the US firmly established as the dominant nation in North America. Thus I would expect his territorial goals in the event of a major US victory to be limited to Kentucky (it will have the most pro-US population of any southern state and thus would be the easiest to reintegrate), Sequoyah (it's sparsely populated, so it wouldn't be that hard to reintegrate and taking it would end the raids on Kansas which was a major US gripe) and as a stretch goal maybe Cuba (since Cuba was only recently acquired by the Confederates, we can safely assume that most of the population there has no real loyalty to the CSA and taking it off of the CSA would let Blaine stick it to the Democrats who did nothing when the CSA purchased Cuba.)

 

[kernel]

Here is what I think the final battle lines in a realistic FGW would look like before an armistice in early 1917.

 

[Dude-a-Buck]

Another thought I had regarding the Second Mexican War, whatever the United States takes after winning be it full re-absorbing the Confederacy or just claiming a few northern states. Mexico will want something as well. Would Diaz or whoever is in charge accept monetary compensation or would they demand territory, probably from Texas?

 

[generaldavis]

Yes sir. The Mormons are the epitome of "How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man!?". The plot about the Mormons really should've been a copy and paste from our timeline. You know, settlers going to Utah and diminishing Mormon influence substantially enough.

In the late 1800s the majority of Mormonism's converts came from overseas if they rebelled the US government would crack down on those heading west and I doubt many Americans would convert to mormonism if they already had a worse view of the religion. There is no way that the mormons would be able to do THREE large scale revolts against the US due to the lack of man power they would eventually have. Also,their sacred text states that the US is the promised land and all that rebel against it will eventually fall.

Fun fact the salt lake temple took the mormons 40 years under strict government watch to build. there is no way they would be able to build it in a 3-4 year span. The modern mormon church could, if they already owned the land and it was a small suburban temple in utah.

 

[Ana Luciana II]

I feel like you could write a whole novel about Cassius and the Red Rebellions during the First Great War. That being said historically agrarian societies have found Anarchism rather than Marxism more appealing. I feel like labourers on the plantations where the rebellions break out ITTL would be more likely to organise along anarchist lines.

 

[ConfederatePatriot1861]

Personally, after the CSA Abolishes slavery, I would have the CSA begin an Era of Civil Rights, specifically in the 1890s and early 1900s, not having segregation or etc.

 

[AK47Productions]

Personally, after the CSA Abolishes slavery, I would have the CSA begin an Era of Civil Rights, specifically in the 1890s and early 1900s, not having segregation or etc.

Soooo let me get this straight.

The Confederacy who already broke away from the US just to maintain slavery does a sudden 180 and institute civil rights for the massive non-white underclass they have zero sympathy for and only see as a cheap, uneducated labor force.

Boy you're username isn't suspicious at all. I bet you have tons of reasonable opinions on numerous subjects that relate to the Confederacy.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Personally, after the CSA Abolishes slavery, I would have the CSA begin an Era of Civil Rights, specifically in the 1890s and early 1900s, not having segregation or etc.

....why?

A nation that is practically enshrined on perpetual slavery isnt going to abolish it unless forced too.