I've got an idea of who to send to deal with the Native Americans out west: Ely S. Parker.
Reconstruction: The Second American Revolution - The Sequel to Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
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Maybe Greeley breaks with the Republicans and his supporters flock to the Readjusters? I kinda like the idea of them becoming known as the Labor Party since the Readjusters were kind of a proto-labor movement for Virginia
Nope, when he commanded the Department of California, Ord declared the Apache to be “vermin to be killed when met.” The most sympathetic general is surprisingly John Pope, who advocated hard war in Virginia in 1862. I always dismissed him as an arrogant braggart, but Peter Cozzens' biography on the man shed new light.
IOTL, Pope was sent to handle the matter of the Sioux uprising in Minnesota, and he did superbly in that role. Pope had real gifts; he was a very able administrator of military departments, and he was superb at handling frontier affairs regarding Native Americans. Pope became increasingly sympathetic to the Native American, and became a genuine crusader for reform in Indian policy, sending detailed and surprisingly thoughtful reports that impressed people. Pope would advocate military control of Native American affairs in an effort to prevent the corruption frequently brought about by Indian agents, though he was willing to work with honest civilians who handled Indian affairs to the best of his ability whenever he had the opportunity. While he directed military campaigns against hostile Native American groups, Pope was far more likely than most to see the bad behavior of white settlers and the encroachment upon Native lands as the root problems, and, thoroughly understanding the tragic cycle of conflicts on the plains, made numerous farsighted, liberal policy recommendations on the subject.
Late in his life, Pope lamented: "There is no rest for the Indian on this continent except in the grave to which he is being driven with accelerated speed every day. I used to think something in accordance with the ordinary dictates of humanity might be devised for him and carried into execution by the government but that hope has long been abandoned and death alone appears to offer relief from an outrage which will be a stain on this government and this people forever."
Wow, thanks for sharing! I always figured because he led military against them that he hated them, but perhaps with Lincoln's command to keep them on the Union side, Pope might be best up there and elsewhere.
On that note, this actually raises a good question: How much will the TL note the dying spasms of the Northern Democrats, sorry, National Unionists and how they try to maintain what's left of their relevance in a radical environment.
It would be interesting having tales of Northern Democrats trying to set up shop in the New South, but find themselves hated by Freedman/Southern Unionist/Redeemers/etc, just about everyone 🤣🤣🤣. These groups might hate each other, but despise those that didn't do any fighting and just watched from the sidelines.
I fully agree that Ely S. Parker should get the job and I threw his name out in the last thread, he and Grant were friendly as far as I know, and Grant gave him the job OTL. He only lost it due to a trumped up corruption scandal, he basically quit in disgust. Given that Grants administration is likely to be more above board with a more politically savvy Grant, (and that much of the groundwork for what is to come will be set by Lincoln) he might be able to keep the position and do some good. Some great points about Pope, but I'll come back to him.
That said, one of the more important things was that Parker kept the military out of Bureau affairs (please correct me if I have this wrong) This I think is important, because if the military is in charge of native affairs, it implies that the gun is always on the table, no matter how good things are. The main thing that needs to happen is we need to avoid or soften the 1876 Sioux War. We've already dodged the 1862 Dakota War, which means that the various Lakota/Dakota tribes have less of a bad taste in their mouth when dealing with the US government.
My pitch is this. Parker gets the Bureau job and is teamed with Pope as his enforcer, then he does just that, actually enforces the treaties. If the US government does even a little enforcement of the Fort Laramie treaty (or TTL equivalent), punishes even a handful of white settlers for treaty violations, that will do so much good. Conflict is still highly likely, but imagine if Parker and Pope are able to actually sit down with Red Cloud and Sitting Bull and honestly say in good faith that they're trying. War is still likely, but maybe we can diminish its long term effects.
Perhaps what is OTL South Dakota becomes a second Oklahoma? Adding to my earlier idea of the Oklahoma tribes throwing the Confederate fellow tribesmen under the bus to secure the land holdings of the loyal tribesmen, maybe the Lakota/Dakota are able to firmly claim what we call South Dakota as their land under US jurisdiction on a similar model? It's still not great, it's still a reservation, it's still likely to come with attempts at assimilation, but giving them a base they can all their own and continuing a precedent that tribes get their own corner of America is a marked improvement on our own world.
Adding on a final thought, if war were to happen, maybe we see a split? Red Cloud and Sitting Bull on opposite sides. Red Cloud leading a movement that decides to secure Laramie Treaty land (leading to ITTL South Dakota), with Sitting Bull going to war. On top of that, maybe given that there's calmer tensions between white settlers and natives, Lakota warriors don't mutilate bodies after ITTL Little Bighorn (especially if there's less ill will towards bluecoats given the calmer set up), further easing relations and allowing Sitting Bull to sit down with the US government with less of a pall over things.
Kind of throwing a lot out there and seeing what sticks admittedly, but I think some of this might work. Overall though, my thesis is this. Things are going to get bad for the plains nations, but it's possible, by keeping things calmer, that they won't get out of hand the way they did ITTL.
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This sounds really good. Even if the whole last third of the 19th century is about getting "good Indians" away from "bad Indians," just acknowledging there are good ones will be a big step forward.
South Dakota as a 2nd Oklahmoma would work, too, becasue originally Dakota was split into 2 states as it was for political reasons, so maybe as the transition is being made from one set of Republicans to the other, one of those Presidents and Congress can arrange for this as a sort of bargaining chip but also a way to get a couple more loyal Senators. (And maybe thumb their nose at the Mormons, as if to say "The Indians are getting a state before you!")
I can see itnow, some Union General who is maybe a little to racist being the one killed at TTL Little Big Horn instead, and a Union officer saying to the Sioux, "Between you andme, he deserved it."
And of course Johnny Carson was using this line over half a century ago (REally, it could have easily started with Mark Twain),but if Sitting Bull does make peace and assimilate into a peaceful political leader, he could change his name to Talking Bull.
And, actually ,Twain probably would write some satirical piece like that TTL.
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It will likely be a while until it's a "state" per say, but the ground work can be laid for the future. What I'm saying is that we're unlikely to get Representative Red Cloud or Governor Sitting Bull, but we MIGHT get a Senator George Gillette come the 20th century.This sounds really good. Even if the whole last third of the 29th century is about getting "good Indians" away from "bad Indians," just acknowledging there are good ones will be a big step forward.
South Dakota as a 2nd Oklahmoma would work, too, becasue originally Dakota was split into 2 states as it was for political reasons, so maybe as the transition is being made from one set of Republicans to the other, one of those Presidents and Congress can arrange for this as a sort of bargaining chip but also a way to get a couple more loyal Senators. (And maybe thumb their nose at the Mormons, as if to say "The Indians are getting a state before you!")
I can see itnow, some Union General who is maybe a little to racist being the one killed at TTL Little Big Horn instead, and a Union officer saying to the Sioux, "Between you andme, he deserved it."
And of course Johnny Carson was using this line over half a century ago (REally, it could have easily started with Mark Twain),but if Sitting Bull does make peace and assimilate into a peaceful political leader, he could change his name to Talking Bull.
Edit: Also, Re-examining Fort Laramie treaty boundaries, I've been saying South Dakota, what might happen if something like this happens is we might see an East vs West Dakota, with a diagonal border following the Missouri river, Tribes getting the west and maybe bits of Wyoming and Montana (likely sans Nebraska), settlers getting the eastern bits of North Dakota and South Dakota.
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LOL, thanks. Yeah at least when I speak into my device I can have it larger print and it usually understands what I'm saying.
Typing, there's no chance Also, before I decided to go all the way back to mark twain, I was going to say that Will Rogers probably first came up with the Talking Bull joke, and almost called him Roy Rogers.
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Or more Charles Curtis types, as he was our Vice President for Herbert Hoover OTL and was half Native American.
This has been all but confirmed to be the direction things are heading, with Grant seeking the presidency in either 68 or 72. Possibly after some time as a representative of senator and with Lincoln showing him the ropes.
Hello,
Is there a possibility of an early start to dismantling the spoils system? Even if a different person succeeds Grant, that institution can still have an adverse effect on how the US government runs from the Federal level downward . Besides there is a hope that Garfield could still serve as President, but then Guiteau is still around...
homework.study.com
Is there a possibility of an early start to dismantling the spoils system? Even if a different person succeeds Grant, that institution can still have an adverse effect on how the US government runs from the Federal level downward . Besides there is a hope that Garfield could still serve as President, but then Guiteau is still around...
How did the spoils system affect James Garfield? | Homework.Study.com
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