The New Order: Last Days of Europe Thread II

[3.21869kilometres]

Wait for real? Why? Literally what purpose does that serve

Because Burgundy is a pointless remnant of the mod that adds nothing. It's concept as the "shadowy state that controls the world" doesn't work unless you build the entire mod around it. Which I think is a much less intresting concept than a 3 way cold war. Not to mention, ever since the cutting of global plans (which was already a shitty mechanic that broke other countries like Vyatka) Burgundy has been crippled gameplay wise and left as a corspe with no satisfying mechanics or ending. IMO a Himmler led Germany would do everything Burgundy does currently but better which is thankfully where TNO is heading.

 

[DracoLazarus]

Because Burgundy is a pointless remnant of the mod that adds nothing. It's concept as the "shadowy state that controls the world" doesn't work unless you build the entire mod around it and ever since the cutting of global plans (which was already a shitty mechanic that broke other countries like Vyatka) Burgundy has been crippled and left as a corspe. IMO a Himmler led Germany would do everything Burgundy does currently but better which is thankfully where TNO is heading.

What's planned to replace it in RK Belgien-Nordfrankreich then ?
And how will cutting out the Franco-Burgundian War affect the paths for France ?

 

[3.21869kilometres]

What's planned to replace it in RK Belgien-Nordfrankreich then ?

IDK I ain't a TNO dev but you can already restore HRE borders under Germany if Burgundy collapses so it's not like there isn't a precedent for Germany just annexing Burgundy outright. Either places like RK Netherlands will expand borders a bit or a new RK be made to be replaced Burgundy.

And how will cutting out the Franco-Burgundian War affect the paths for France ?

Not all that much, I imagine something will happen to France during Germany's instability that will cause it to go down its paths. Maybe an uprising of the French SS like in that one leak ages ago?

 

[Terran Allias]

God damnit are people flipping their shit over gaslighting again?

 

[Twiggierjet]

Because Burgundy is a pointless remnant of the mod that adds nothing. It's concept as the "shadowy state that controls the world" doesn't work unless you build the entire mod around it. Which I think is a much less intresting concept than a 3 way cold war. Not to mention, ever since the cutting of global plans (which was already a shitty mechanic that broke other countries like Vyatka) Burgundy has been crippled gameplay wise and left as a corspe with no satisfying mechanics or ending. IMO a Himmler led Germany would do everything Burgundy does currently but better which is thankfully where TNO is heading.

Removing the global plans is very much a good thing, but removing burgundy entirely is not. They should still have it be this nightmare SS run state, just have them be utterly incapable of influencing global politics because they are fanatic morons. And I don't see how that state would get in the way of the cold war.

In terms of it not being realistic or something, I'd argue that all the best parts of TNO, like Guangdong, only came about because the team said fuck it and utterly disregarded realism and real life plans and just went for something that was narratively interesting.

 

[Tolkiene]

TWR is not realistic in the slightest. It has, among other things:

• Aryan Emperor Himmler
• Crazy Ultra-Militarist Warmonger Goebbels (no, that's not what the total war speech was about, anyone who thinks that has not actually read it, just watched random clips of him yelling 'do you want total war').
• Otto Strasser being relevant. Gregor was the relevant Strasser, and he's long dead. Otto was the irrelevant one. Actually, People's Germany in general makes no real sense, what with it just being a wild mishmash of everyone opposed to Hitler's regime.
• Kruglov turning into Gorbachev for no reason
• Nazbol Brezhnev
• Hermann Esser can become Germany's leader.

 

[ArthurS]

• Aryan Emperor Himmler
• Crazy Ultra-Militarist Warmonger Goebbels (no, that's not what the total war speech was about, anyone who thinks that has not actually read it, just watched random clips of him yelling 'do you want total war').
• Otto Strasser being relevant. Gregor was the relevant Strasser, and he's long dead. Otto was the irrelevant one. Actually, People's Germany in general makes no real sense, what with it just being a wild mishmash of everyone opposed to Hitler's regime.
• Kruglov turning into Gorbachev for no reason
• Nazbol Brezhnev
• Hermann Esser can become Germany's leader.

Not to forget wholesome democratic Action française (?), Gallic LARPer Doriot (??), pro-Italian Fire Crosses Mitterrand-Jouvenel-Brasillach triumvirate (???), Reichskommissar Vallat (????) and last but not least, Stalinist Nicole Minet (?????) !

 

[Tolkiene]

Not to forget wholesome democratic Action française (?), Gallic LARPer Doriot (??), pro-Italian Fire Crosses Mitterrand-Jouvenel-Brasillach triumvirate (???), Reichskommissar Vallat (????) and last but not least, Stalinist Nicole Minet (?????) !

Reichskommissariat Frankenreich! lol I literally helped work on a volume with primary source documents about the Holocaust where Nazis express their suspicion and dislike of Vallat because the RSHA considers him to be 'too Catholic'.

 

[tancz31lh]

Calling TWR a realistic mod is laughable and comparing it to TNO does nothing but harm the perception of both mods.

More realistic. Neither is realistic because an German or Axis victory of any kind in WW2 is not realistic. However, TWR, and especially the original ATL it's based on, always billed itself on being a plausible scenario compared to the messaging of TNO which was always less concerned with plausibility.

 

[tancz31lh]

• Otto Strasser being relevant. Gregor was the relevant Strasser, and he's long dead. Otto was the irrelevant one. Actually, People's Germany in general makes no real sense, what with it just being a wild mishmash of everyone opposed to Hitler's regime.

Disagree about it making no real sense but I think that it is quite likely to be very unstable with fatigue being the only thing preventing a second civil war.

 

[Jedevari]

My prediction is that Himmler will replace Heydrich as the SS Fuhrer candidate, with his rule being close to the original Heydrich DevDiary focus tree (Making Germany into a Orwellian police state, with the SS becoming an elite ruling caste, with some focus to esoteric stuff)

Meanwhile, Heydrich will either get his own private fiefdown elsewhere like in TWR, or be a potential usurper path for Himmler like Komai.

 

[ArthurS]

considers him to be 'too Catholic'.

Which he technically was... given his Maurrassian background

 

[3.21869kilometres]

Removing the global plans is very much a good thing, but removing burgundy entirely is not. They should still have it be this nightmare SS run state, just have them be utterly incapable of influencing global politics because they are fanatic morons. And I don't see how that state would get in the way of the cold war.

That wouldn't be fun to play or read about though. What good mechanics can you get out of being incompetent? How do you justify the local population not overthrowing the SS immediately if they're bumbling fools? How do you make varied events?

IMO you can have a much more compelling story with a SS led Germany in the cold war. Not only is a SS Germany being such a massive cold war player and at least decently competent much more terrifying than the "nuke the world for the lols" of old Burgundy but it would also explain why the SS have the ability to influence things on a global scale and could make for some decent mechanics and story.

Meanwhile, Heydrich will either get his own private fiefdown elsewhere like in TWR, or be a potential usurper path for Himmler like Komai.

I mean, we've seen that Heydrich remains in Bormann's government if he wins the power struggle in this teaser.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TNOmod/comments/120pzr5

I think Himmler is gonna be head of the SS at start and so the 4 inital successors to Hitler will be Göring, Bormann, Speer and Himmler with Heydrich attempting a Komai like coup as the mid game crisis for all 4 leaders and if that succeeds, Heydrich gets his own path.

 

[Twiggierjet]

That wouldn't be fun to play or read about though. What good mechanics can you get out of being incompetent? How do you justify the local population not overthrowing the SS immediately if they're bumbling fools? How do you make varied events?

IMO you can have a much more compelling story with a SS led Germany in the cold war. Not only is a SS Germany being such a massive cold war player and at least decently competent much more terrifying than the "nuke the world for the lols" of old Burgundy but it would also explain why the SS have the ability to influence things on a global scale and could make for some decent mechanics and story.

Easy, you maintain the current Burgundy internal story where they start out with a deathgrip on the country and eventually become susceptible to rebellion until they collapse much like how they are structured right now.

As for SS led Germany, that could be interesting I agree, but I don't see why you need to get rid of Burgundy for that. Just have Heydrich go with his original planned path from the early dev diaries instead of his current one.

 

[3.21869kilometres]

Easy, you maintain the current Burgundy internal story where they start out with a deathgrip on the country and eventually become susceptible to rebellion until they collapse much like how they are structured right now.

I asked how your idea of reworking Burgundy would make it better and you just said "keep it how it is". Burgundy is a shambling corpse of old TNO philosophy, I don't know why people insist on keeping it when it adds nothing intresting to the mod and its narrative and gameplay are complete shit.

The only way Burgundy could stick around in some way is to have the French SS be the main rulers. Himmler is much better used in Germany proper than being locked in Burgundy IMO.

SS led Germany, that could be interesting I agree, but I don't see why you need to get rid of Burgundy for that. Just have Heydrich go with his original planned path from the early dev diaries instead of his current one.

Because Himmler and Heydrich would have different ways of ruling Germany and more importantly would have different approaches to the cold war. Those subtle differences in the SS German paths would be a much more narratively intresting and mechanically intresting then keeping Burgundy around for no other reason then nostalgia.

 

[Twiggierjet]

I asked how your idea of reworking Burgundy would make it better and you just said "keep it how it is". Burgundy is a shambling corpse of old TNO philosophy, I don't know why people insist on keeping it when it adds nothing intresting to the mod and its narrative and gameplay are complete shit.

The only way Burgundy could stick around in some way is to have the French SS be the main rulers. Himmler is much better used in Germany proper than being locked in Burgundy IMO.



Because Himmler and Heydrich would have different ways of ruling Germany and more importantly would have different approaches to the cold war. Those subtle differences in the SS German paths would be a much more narratively intresting and mechanically intresting then keeping Burgundy around for no other reason then nostalgia.

I think it should be kept around because it is a key component of the TNO world and aesthetic and one of the things that keeps it unique from the dime-a-dozen "Himmler takes over" nazi victory TL's and mods and removing it does little more then add more reworks to a mod that desperately needs to actually move forward instead of constantly rehashing stuff.

Now I will admit that you may be right that Burgundy would be better served by rewriting it so that someone else is in charge of it at the start, especially if they can bring the writing up to the level of something like Guangdong or Manchuko, but it should stay around in some form.

 

[Doglover285]

In terms of it not being realistic or something, I'd argue that all the best parts of TNO, like Guangdong, only came about because the team said fuck it and utterly disregarded realism and real life plans and just went for something that was narratively interesting.

I 200 percent agree with this, in a an actually realistic world the Germans would have never won. Not that I disaprove of the setting becoming more realistic in general but a lot of the time the best Stories are to be found in the more 'unique' settings,

 

[Gukpard]

Inside the genius mind of TNO Uruguay Head, Muhamar al @SilverImperator

 

[Reisen Storm]

Inside the genius mind of TNO Uruguay Head, Muhamar al @SilverImperator

There's a method to his madness. I say let him cook.

 

[MultiplePOD]

People's Germany in general makes no real sense, what with it just being a wild mishmash of everyone opposed to Hitler's regime.

Like Russian Whites. And Republican Spain. Really, that's not unrealistic.