AHC: Kingdom of Georgia Wank

[AlfLandonFan]

The Kingdom of Georgia, especially during the rules of Tamar the Great and George the Brilliant, has always been a fascinating country that I've wanted to learn more about. Unfortunately, as an American who mostly browses American/English speaking websites, it's hard to do so with one of our states having the same name.

During the reign of King/Queen Tamar, it seemed like everything was going good for Georgia. They had numerous vassals, were respected among the wider European community, and their biggest adversary to the title of Orthodox Protector had crumbled. Then, the Mongols came and destroyed their army, then the Timurids, then the Turkmens, then the plague, and soon it fell completely.

The best I can think of is making the Georgian army defeat the Mongols at Khunan. At that point, the Mongols weren't interested in conquering the Caucuses, so perhaps having them be defeated at Khunan would cause them to not change their minds like they did OTL. Or, maybe the defeat just invigorates the Mongols. I know almost nothing about Mongol history, so I'm curious to see what people more educated on the topic then me have to say about this scenario.

Without a decimated Georgian army, the Fifth Crusade could perhaps succeed, and with the Byzantines dead Georgia could become the Christian power in the east. I've always had this idea of Georgia "reforming" the Byzantine Empire with their ally/satellite Trebizond, but I don't know how plausible this actually is.

Of course, I could always do an ASB tl where Tamar the Great is immortal.

 

[Marc Anthony]

My thaught is kill David VI Ulugh that way David VI Narin has no rival that would split the Kingdom. Also, instead of fighting the Mongols and loosing he surenders and capitalizes on that by becoming the premier vassal in the region.

 

[dachi]

Well its good to hear that someone is interested in my countries history.

Really the easiest thing George IV to simply never met that girl and marry one of Didebulis daughters.

This would certainly help stabilise his reign and allow him more breathing space to enact more of his reforms.

And if that happens he wouldn't feel the need to lead the army himself against the Mongols thus not killing him and leading to devision.


It would also help if he listened to his general and sieged ganja instead of assaulting it and being encircled. In fact if he did this it would strengthen the army and royal treasury


If you're interested I have some sources

 

[Marc Anthony]

Oh for some reason I had it convused and thaught it was David VI who fought the Mongols and forgot the Mongols arrived 20 years earlier

 

[Marc Anthony]

Anyway we truly need more medieval Georgian TLs it's a fascinating land

 

[AlfLandonFan]

If you're interested I have some sources

Thank you for the reply!
And I would be very interested in sources. As I said it's hard to do research on the country on American internet

 

[dachi]

Oh for some reason I had it convused and thaught it was David VI who fought the Mongols and forgot the Mongols arrived 20 years earlier

Like I said George IV could have done lot of thing's if he wasn't god dam so I love with that girl but alas.

At worst possibility he could still so everthing but finally decide to listen to his entire court and general's who where begging him to not lead the army but he didn't listen and we know what happened.


Also what's probably not mentioned in wiki is that he become effected by deep melancholy and started drinking


Edit I also forgot that in one of his most infamous drunk day's when he beat an noble to death with hot poker

 

[dachi]

Thank you for the reply!
And I would be very interested in sources. As I said it's hard to do research on the country on American internet

Right now I'm not in georgia and unfortunately don't have my books with me but if you're interested when I go home I'll send you the various sources

 

[Elfwine]

Right now I'm not in georgia and unfortunately don't have my books with me but if you're interested when I go home I'll send you the various sources

Put me down as another interested American, please.

 

[dachi]

Put me down as another interested American, please.

No problem it aways gladden my heart that people are interested in my country

 

[Silver01]

The best I can think of is making the Georgian army defeat the Mongols at Khunan. At that point, the Mongols weren't interested in conquering the Caucuses, so perhaps having them be defeated at Khunan would cause them to not change their minds like they did OTL. Or, maybe the defeat just invigorates the Mongols. I know almost nothing about Mongol history, so I'm curious to see what people more educated on the topic then me have to say about this scenario.

the expedition of 1222 under jebe and subotai was a raiding one not a conquering one the actual conquest would not be done till 1230s but the 1220s invasion left the kingdom in bad state so much so that jal al din invaded soon after the mongols retreated, you can have Georgia not be attacked in 1220s say chinggis denies jebe and subotai go further after they loose the shah, seeing how the kharezmian empire was gobbled it gives Georgia more time to prepare

 

[dachi]

the expedition of 1222 under jebe and subotai was a raiding one not a conquering one the actual conquest would not be done till 1230s but the 1220s invasion left the kingdom in bad state so much so that jal al din invaded soon after the mongols retreated, you can have Georgia not be attacked in 1220s say chinggis denies jebe and subotai go further after they loose the shah

That was mostly due to the fact that main georgian force was of 70.000 hasty assembled soldiers as initially rusudan didn't believe that attack was going to happen.

And even that was more then enemies force of 30,000 the main reason why Georgian army lost was fact that nobility in army disliked Akhaltsikhelis brother's who were considered new nobility

 

[alexmilman]

Oh for some reason I had it convused and thaught it was David VI who fought the Mongols and forgot the Mongols arrived 20 years earlier

They came twice: 1st time in 1220, as a part of Subutai & Jebe raid and did not result in any conquest, and 2nd in 1230s when they came seriously. But in-between Georgia was conquered by Khwaresm Shah Jelal ad-Din who caused a real devastation. The second Mongolian conquest came on a wake of their defeat of Jelal ad-Din and caused little resistance, partially, as I understand, because Jelal ad-Din was really bad. The Georgian kingdom began to pay tribute to the Mongols and its troops participated in a number of the Mongolian campaigns.

 

[alexmilman]

That was mostly due to the fact that main georgian force was of 70.000 hasty assembled soldiers as initially rusudan didn't believe that attack was going to happen.

And even that was more then enemies force of 30,000 the main reason why Georgian army lost was fact that nobility in army disliked Akhaltsikhelis brother's who were considered new nobility

You forgot to specify that these 30,000 were extremely well organized experienced troops with led by two great generals one of whom usually ends up on the list of “the greatest generals ever”. The chances of victory for the 60-70,000 hastily assembled feudal militia were extremely low regardless nobility’s feelings and Rusudan’s beliefs: Georgia simply did not have a regular army and neither did most of the contemporary states.

 

[dachi]

You forgot to specify that these 30,000 were extremely well organized experienced troops with led by two great generals one of whom usually ends up on the list of “the greatest generals ever”. The chances of victory for the 60-70,000 hastily assembled feudal militia were extremely low regardless nobility’s feelings and Rusudan’s beliefs: Georgia simply did not have a regular army and neither did most of the contemporary states.

If you could please provide source for 30,000 enemies soldier's to being far better organised troops then I shall conceded that.Once more, I cannot comment on the state of the quality difference between the two armies. But what I can't comment on is that the majority of battles were between the georgian vanguard and the enemy, while the majority of the georgian army was held back by Mkhargrdzeli. Thus stating that internal divide had no effect on outcome of battle seems too much to say.



And as stated above, the size of the georgian army was limited by the fact that rusudan was a highly unpopular ruler and thus could never hope to mobilise the full potential of the Greek army.

 

[alexmilman]

If you could please provide source for 30,000 enemies soldier's to being far better organised troops then I shall conceded that.

Descriptions of the Mongolian military system and the Mongolian campaigns are widely available on internet so your concession is not really required: they created a largest land empire in the history. OTOH, descriptions of the Georgian military system of the time are much more obscure so I’d appreciate if you provide a comprehensive description for the comparison.

Once more, I cannot comment on the state of the quality difference between the two armies.

Don’t take it as an offense but at that time very few countries in the world had what would pass for the regular armies with a clearly set structure, regulated equipment, tactics and professional leadership. It is not offense for Georgia of that time not to have one because nobody around did. But what you wrote about the local princes being unhappy, etc. is just a confirmation of what I’m saying: Georgia had a military force typical for its time relying upon the bands of the local feudals and led by these feudals. Which meant, as everywhere else in the world, that the tactical abilities of such armies were limited and their performance was too dependent upon the whims of the bands’ leaders. Not a good situation when the enemy is trained to maneuver in and outside the battlefield in all sizes of units and has an iron discipline from top to bottom. And, especially, when on the top you have a military genius (or perhaps even two).

Personal bravery and individual skills were not enough for opposing a regular army Mongolian style. Did not work for Khwaresm, Russian principalities, Hungarians and combined force at Legnica so there is nothing humiliating there.

 

[dachi]

Descriptions of the Mongolian military system and the Mongolian campaigns are widely available on internet so your concession is not really required: they created a largest land empire in the history. OTOH, descriptions of the Georgian military system of the time are much more obscure so I’d appreciate if you provide a comprehensive description for the comparison.

Oh I didn’t mean about the mongols i have no problem with agreeing with you about that rather i was talking about Battle of Garni
And Khwarazmian soldier’s not mongols

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[alexmilman]

Oh I didn’t mean about the mongols i have no problem with agreeing with you about that rather i was talking about Battle of Garni
And Khwarazmian soldier’s not mongols

​

Ah, this is a completely different kettle of fish. Nelal ad-Din had nothing like a regular army and did not often controlled the force he had.

 

[Silver01]

If you could please provide source for 30,000 enemies soldier's to being far better organised troops then I shall conceded that.

even by 1206 the mongol army was already organized by 1220s they only became more so

 

[dachi]

even by 1206 the mongol army was already organized by 1220s they only became more so

I’m not talking about the mongols as i have replied to alexi but the Battle of Garni
And Khwarazmian soldier’s not mongols