AHC: United Kingdom of France and the Two Sicilies

[B_Munro]

General opinion seems to be that a union of French and Spanish Bourbon Kingdoms is ASB unless you at least gank the UK, and even then would be difficult to maintain. How about a more modest union of Bourbons crowns - France and Bourbon Italy (1735-1860, with some revolutionary interruptions)? This is of course somewhat complicated by Sicily and Naples being two kingdoms loosely united under one crown before the Napoleonic invasion, but I am sure something can be figured out.

 

[DrakeRlugia]

The Neapolitan Bourbons were cadets of the Spanish Bourbon line. So that means if the King of the Two Sicilies was next in line to the French line (assuming, I guess that the House of Orléans is extinct in this situation; I don't think the claim that the Duke of Anjou couldn't renounce his rights to France before he took the Spanish crown--there would be huge opposition.)

At any rate: this heir to France, as King of the Two Sicilies, would be King of Spain, too. All of the Italian Bourbon lines were related to the Spanish branch: thus any union, as super unlikely as it would be, would have this king the King of Spain.

 

[Westphalian]

I don't think you can this via simple inheritance, as Spain was always close to Naples succession-wise than France.

But 1735 points at the wonderful time of the 18th century when a Duke of Lorraine would be moved to Tuscany so a toppled Polish king could take over Lorraine.

When will a Congress of European powers, including GB, simply allow France to take over Naples and Sicily?
Hum, wiki says:
"The Treaty of London, agreed on March 25, 1700 and sometimes known as the Second Partition Treaty, was an attempt to restore the Prgamatic Sanction following the death of Duke Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria, which had undermined the First Partition Treaty.
The Spanish Empire was now divided between the three surviving candidates. By this new treaty Archduke Charles would receive most of Spain, the Spanish Netherlands, Sardinia, and the overseas empire. The Dauphin would acquire Gipuzkoa, as well as the rest of Spain's Italian possessions, on the understanding that Milan would be exchanged for the Duchy of Lorraine, which in turn would be incorporated into France. For Leopold I, however, control of Spain and its colonial empire was less important than Italy, in particular Milan which he regarded as essential for the security of Austria's south-western flank. Although Leopold I and his ministers were willing to accept some sort of partition, they would not agree to a deal that shut the Austrians out of Italy. Leopold I, therefore, opposed the Second Partition Treaty."

The most obvious way would be for Leopold not to oppose this English-French-Dutch agreement, or to somehow have France adhere to this plan and so keeping the goodwill of England-Scotland and the Netherlands, so at the end of a radically different War of the Spanish Succession the French Bourbons get Naples-Sicily.

 

[Socrates]

You could potentially have a situation where a string of deaths leads to all three crowns uniting, and then a European wide war over it results in France being allowed to keep Naples but Spain is split.

Alternatively you could just have a marriage between Naples and France.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I keep seeing United Kingdom, and unconsciously assuming Britain's part of this...

 

[Matteo]

General opinion seems to be that a union of French and Spanish Bourbon Kingdoms is ASB unless you at least gank the UK, and even then would be difficult to maintain. How about a more modest union of Bourbons crowns - France and Bourbon Italy (1735-1860, with some revolutionary interruptions)? This is of course somewhat complicated by Sicily and Naples being two kingdoms loosely united under one crown before the Napoleonic invasion, but I am sure something can be figured out.

To my opinion, such a union is ASB for other reasons than Britain's opposition. It is just that Spain and France had been at war for 2 centuries. The story of western Europe in the 16th and 17th century is, to a large extent, the story of the conflict between the Habsburg empire, and especially its spanish branch, and France.

This is all about realpolitiks. You can't make a dynastic and political union between countries that have had for so long a strong identity and whose relationship has so much been war.

The opnly thing that could be achieved was having 2 members of the same dyansty on the 2 thrones of France and Spain.

And what triggered the war of spanish succession was less the fact that Louis XIV finally decided that his second grandson Philip duke of Anjou would retain his rights to the french crown (if his elder brother were to die sonless) than the fact that the french began fortifying the northern and eastern frontier of the spanish Low Countries that were nominally the property of the king of Spain (that is Philip duke of Anjou), not the property of the king of France (France holding the Low Countries being the absolute casus belli for Britain).

Now, if you want a union between France and Italy under the same monarch, you need a much earlier POD.

Have France win the wars of Italy at the beginning of the 16th century.