Carpenter's Hammer: When Karen went Punk. A Hensonverse TLIAW

[MNM041]

Plus, by this point Punk was fading out of the public eye, with more pop-influenced Punks like Billy Idol pushing aside the more hard-core original acts.

This statement is kind of funny when you consider that Joan Jett and Billy Idol actually hung out.

That said, I'm genuinely curious where Karen goes from here. As an aside, I'm also curious who else she'll end up running into after this. I know he's not a really a punk, but I can picture someone David Bowie praising this transformation of hers.

On another note, I'm genuinely curious what Alice Cooper's opinion of her cover of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" was. I'd imagine he dug it since it became a single for the album, but I'd also imagine this shift was as much surprise to him as it was to everyone else.

 

[Bbone91]

Honestly I don’t know much about punk music as a genre, I’m just happy to see another Hensonverse thread by Gheekis Khan.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

This statement is kind of funny when you consider that Joan Jett and Billy Idol actually hung out.

No judgement on the Idol, man! I love Billy Idol. "White Wedding" is one of my favorites. The video is epic.

Mostly that's an indication of the way the tastes are changing.

That said, I'm genuinely curious where Karen goes from here. As an aside, I'm also curious who else she'll end up running into after this. I know he's not a really a punk, but I can picture someone David Bowie praising this transformation of hers.

David Bowie would definitely like her new style, particularly where she goes next. He was all about Reinvention and pushing the limits and horizons.

On another note, I'm genuinely curious what Alice Cooper's opinion of her cover of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" was. I'd imagine he dug it since it became a single for the album, but I'd also imagine this shift was as much surprise to him as it was to everyone else.

He liked it, called it his favorite cover of one of his songs.

Honestly I don’t know much about punk music as a genre, I’m just happy to see another Hensonverse thread by Gheekis Khan.

Thanks Bbone, glad to have you back on board!

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Ok, so Karen's had enough of the Punk Life, it seems, but is she done with Punk? Stay Tuned tomorrow!

 

[nick_crenshaw82]

This statement is kind of funny when you consider that Joan Jett and Billy Idol actually hung out.View attachment 902807
That said, I'm genuinely curious where Karen goes from here. As an aside, I'm also curious who else she'll end up running into after this. I know he's not a really a punk, but I can picture someone David Bowie praising this transformation of hers.

On another note, I'm genuinely curious what Alice Cooper's opinion of her cover of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" was. I'd imagine he dug it since it became a single for the album, but I'd also imagine this shift was as much surprise to him as it was to everyone else.

If not for the fact that @Geekhis Khan already said he may have enough pictures from me to finish TLIAW I might make this a pic of Kari Carr and Billy Idol.

 

[Dan]

Posted with permission from @Geekhis Khan
------

Excerpt from "Oblivious, Oregon", Henry Rollins, live at Shepherd's Bush Empire, London, 2004.

"So this is something that happened to me back in the mid 80's when the band, (Black Flag), were on our way back from a show in Portland, Oregon. And this ladies and gentlemen, was, without doubt, the second strangest, most surreal time of my life.
Middle of the fucking night, we've got another 6 hours of driving to fuck knows where for our next show and Bill [Stephenson, Black Flag drummer] starts complaining that he's hungry. We'd just done a great show, it was a theatre the size of a shoe box and everyone up there was fucking wild man, it's the north west, they got nothing up there but rain, and punk shows

Anyway, we're on a road in the middle of fucking nowhere, it's pitch black out, like, you look out of the van and you can see nothing.
And up ahead we see a diner and a gas station lit up like an oasis of light in this inky, solid black.
We pull in, Greg [Ginn] was driving so he filled up with gas and we went into this diner.
We were the only fucking people in there. I'm in athletics shorts, a t shirt and sneakers, the other guys are in their jeans and shit, we looked what we were, fucking punk kid degenerates. But, we're polite and we sit quietly and eat our food.

As we're sat there eating, another van pulls up. Four guys and a woman get out and come in.
Now we were all fucking exhausted, they look like a small time rock band, and so we didn't pay too much attention to what was going on. This group sat at another table ordered their food and got on eating.

After a few minutes, the lady gets up, walks over and sits opposite me and says, "you're Henry Rollins aren't you"?
Now, I am in my mid 20's. I'm in a band, we just played a show and I am high on my own supply of ego, I am young, dumb and, well, mostly just dumb, and, Ladies and Gentlemen, you will see just how dumb in a moment...
Yes I am, I replied, we just played a show and we're on our way to our next show in wherever the fuck it was.
I have no idea who this woman is, but she seems to know who I am and I was raised to be polite...
"Oh" she says, realising I am obviously an idiot, "I'm in a band too, I'm the drummer, we're heading to LA for our next show"
And we get talking. And talking and talking. Everything I knew about music, she knew more, stories about touring, she knew more, people I'd met, she knew more. She was never arrogant about it, she was this total badass goddess and I am hanging on every fucking word.
After a while, we're getting ready to go, she writes down her number and tells me to ring when we play LA next. I put the napkin away and leave.

The guys around me can't believe what had happened and I was talking to this woman, and they're just like "Dude, what the hell man, why didn't you introduce us"?
And I'm like "why, just some chick in a band".
Just some chick in a band, [shakes his head slowly and sadly] Just. Some. Chick. In. A. Band...

And THIS Ladies and Gentlemen, this one moment, is why I am THE absolute DUMBEST motherfucker you will ever meet:

"Dude, that was Karen Fucking Carpenter"!

Did I ever ring that number?
Nope
Do I regret it?
Yup
However, that was only the second most surreal moments of my life, because of what happened about 15 years later..."

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Title Card:

The Money's in the Basement

Clip: VCR footage of a dark basement club. Debbie Harry sings “The Hardest Part” while Karen hammers on the drums behind her

Narrator: Debborah Harry, front woman of the experimental sometimes-Punk band Blondie, met Karen backstage at a West Berlin performance by The Blackhearts and the two hit it off. When Karen left The Blackhearts, she and Harry, who was “between projects” as she put it, decided to collaborate on an experimental Post-Punk band they named, naturally, Hari Kari. Deliberately non-mainstream between Harry’s unworldly vocals and Karen’s jazz-inspired drums, Hari Kari rarely sold Platinum, but it was never meant to. Instead, it quickly built up an underground following. The smaller, more intimate setting suited Karen well, and she called the tour, mostly of basement clubs, “heaven below the earth,” which became the title for their largest hit, which steadily climbed up the Alternative Top 100 in 1988.

Debbie Harry and Joan Jett; Kari is just off camera (Photograph by Chris Stein, posted to Reddit by Bronxtrixie86)

Clip: Kurt Loder on MTV News

Kurt: Hari Kari’s new single “Heaven Below the Earth” has dominated the emerging NuPunk scene, a surreal track that evokes Poly Styrene, Siouxsie Sue, and The Cure.

[Clip Ends]

Clip: News Announcer behind a desk

Announcer: And many rumors persist that the drummer for the Debbie Harry fronted underground sensation may in fact be Karen Carpenter, credited as Kari Carr, who had also performed with The Blackhearts.

[Clip Ends]

Kari Carr touring with Hari Kari (Image generated by @nick_crenshaw82)

Footage of Hari Kari in concert. Karen can be seen hammering in the back, occasionally providing vocals.

Narrator: Soon enough outed as one half of The Carpenters, Karen refused interviews at first, but finally relented. Once outed, the discovery added some freedom, allowing her to more openly sing in her signature style, no longer feeling pressured to hide her identity. But with the “outing” came the outcry, at least from certain sectors. Harry not only defended her decision to partner with Carpenter, but hyped up her growing cred with the underground Punk and Post-Punk scenes.

Clip: Debbie Harry and Karen Carpenter (as Kari Carr) in an interview with MTV

Debbie: Kari’s the fucking best. A true Punk. She’s my bad-ass bitch, you know?”

Volume drops.

Narrator: Harry wasn’t alone. Soon others were chiming in. David Bowie called her transformation “a sublime metamorphosis; a dark butterfly emerging from a soft silk chrysalis”. Souxsie Sue called her “a glorious example of the power of Punk to empower.” Henry Rollins called her “Far more than just some chick in a band.” Alice Cooper even famously said, “She’s got the purr of a kitten and the roar of a lion. And I do love her taste in music.” Even D.H. Peligro came to her defense, calling the haters “whiny little shits.” The refusal by Karen to engage in the controversy simply made the controversy linger, which in turn boosted national attention to it, helping to propel “Heaven Below the Earth”, which had languished in semi-obscurity, to near the top of the Alternative charts. When Karen did finally relent to an interview, on the condition that they’d only talk about Hari Kari, she still managed to garner controversy when asked why she wasn’t following the then-current trend towards drum machines.

Volume returns

Karen: Yeah, I don’t do drum machines. I guess Phil Collins popularized them and now everyone’s doing them. I don’t like them. They sound fake. I prefer playing real drums. I like that real sound, you know?

Narrator: The press ran with this clip, spinning it up as a diss on Phil Collins, which it wasn’t. Without seeing the interview or hearing the context, Collins replied dismissively that Karen “couldn’t handle” Drum Machines or Genesis tracks. At first, Karen wanted to respond amicably and diffuse the controversy, as she’d tried to do with John Bonham, but Harry intervened, urging her to “let it walk a bit”. Karen avoided the press, greeting any questions involving Collins with a middle finger. Eventually, again at Harry’s urging, she released a video of a flawless Drum Machine medley of Collins drum lines, then expanded and elaborated upon them, and then, recalling the challenge she’d received from Bonham a decade before but been discouraged from accepting, challenged Collins to a Drum Duel. The results were epic.

Clip: Karen Carpenter and Phil Collins in their epic Drum Duel. After a few exchanges, the volume drops

Narrator: The duel and subsequent concert sold out Madison Square Garden and got a thirty-six Nielsen share when shown on NBC. The two spun the controversy into a limited eight-city tour together, with Hari Kari and Phil Collins taking turns opening for one another and frequently playing together or swapping songs or trading parts and players. A live album of one such concert sold double-platinum and a VHS recording was a best video seller. Phil and Karen remain friends to this day. It would be the peak of Karen’s new Punk-inspired career renaissance. But the fall would come quickly.

Clip: Karen, in an interview, looking tired

Karen: Fame is bullcrap, no matter how it comes to you.

Title Card:

A Kind of Hush

[Clip Ends]

Footage and stills of Karen in the late 1980s. Black Flag’s “Nothing Left Inside” plays.

Narrator: Karen Carpenter was back on top of the world, but the return to the spotlight brought with it a return of the same stresses that it always had. Seeing the thin, beautiful Jett and Harry brought back the body image issues, though Harry showed her healthier ways to stay fit, telling her, at one critical point, “it isn’t the pounds, hon, it’s what you pack into ‘em.” Even so, the omnipresent drugs and drinking brought back bad memories of her brother while the Long Plastic Hallway of the music industry wore on her. In 1989, at the peak of her newfound fame, she and Harry ended Hari Kari. Harry would return to solo work. Karen would vanish from the public eye.

Clip: Footage of Karen Carpenter as Kari Carr on Behind the Music

BtM Narrator: She was at the top of her newfound fame, and suddenly, she was nowhere to be seen.

[Cut To…]

Clip: Jon Stewart on VH1

Jon: (shrugs) Kari where-y?

[Clip Ends]

Footage of confused fans and Karen dodging reporters.

Narrator: For all intents and purposes, Karen had fallen off the face of the earth. Her home was sold at auction, her belongings moved to a warehouse, and then secretly moved from there to her new home, acquired through a holding company, the location a closely guarded secret. Rumors circulated that she’d moved to Switzerland or New Zealand or The Cayman Islands. Others suggested that she was living under an assumed name or had joined an underground band. These last two rumors, it turned out, were right on the nose.

Clip: VCR footage of Karen in a long black gown, drumming in a jazz band. Her hair is blonde and tied up in a complex style. She is drumming to the Dave Brubeck Quartet’s “Take Five”

Narrator: Grainy footage appeared in 1991 on various news outlets purporting to show Karen playing the drums to one of her old favorites, “Take Five” by the Dave Brubeck Quartet with its iconic 5/4-time signature. The band was an experimental Jazz Ensemble called The Jazz Passengers fronted by saxophonist Roy Nathanson and trombonist Curtis Fowlkes, both formerly of The Lounge Lizards. The drummer, listed as K.C. Richards, was, in fact, Karen Carpenter.

One Lineup of The Jazz Passengers c1990; Curtis Fowlkes is in the center with glasses, Roy Nathanson is beside him, third from the left with mustache (Image: Wikimedia)

Photos of Karen with the various members of The Jazz Travelers and other musicians, including her old partner Debbie Harry. “Take Five” plays in the background.

Narrator: Karen had been introduced to Nathanson by Deborah Harry, and he had in turn introduced her to Fowlkes. The two became good friends with their mutual love of jazz and sunny senses of humor. Karen in particular told Dionne Warwick how much she loved his sense of humor. Scandal erupted when the friendship became an affair, with Fowlkes ultimately leaving his wife and family and marrying Karen in secret. And in 1991 Karen would, despite being in her early forties, finally get the family that she’d wanted, giving birth to daughter Rosa Deborah Anne Fowlkes. A son, Richard Mataw Fowlkes, followed in 1993. But in early 1991, with Karen visibly pregnant, The Jazz Passengers began to notice a sudden shift in their audience.

Clip: Karen in an interview with Larry King.

Karen: Now all of the sudden our audience of Bop fans and neo-beatniks is getting increasingly padded with squares in corduroy and Punks in leather! We knew in that moment that the jig was up! We were approached to perform at the [Hollywood] Bowl, and decided to do it, one last concert before I went on maternity leave. We called it “Caught in the Act”.

[Cut To…]

Clip: Footage from the “Caught in the Act” Concert plays. Karen continues to speak in voiceover

For reference, Debbie Harry with The Jazz Passengers c1994

Karen (V.O.): We went crazy. The cat was out of the bag, so it became all about me. If you haven’t seen it, Larry, it’s insanity. I play “Dancing in the Street,” “Ticket to Ride,” and then some of my Carpenters singles. It was the first time I’d performed them in years, and it was emotionally hard to even practice, and a bit hard to relearn after so many years, but in Richard’s honor I did ‘em. Then into the Punk stuff. “California Über Alles,” “No More Mr. Nice Guy,” all my stuff with Joan and Deborah. Finally, my husband gets to join me for some jazz stuff. At one point I even played “Cum on Feel the Noise” on the glockenspiel! Insanity!! But the crowd loved it!

 

[MNM041]

Quick question @Geekhis Khan, do you have plans to do any other TLIAWs set in the Hensonverse, or is this meant as a one off thing? I'm fine either way, but I am genuinely curious.

 

[MNM041]

Also, since so far, every artist I've openly speculated could come up has in some way, I suppose I'll keep going:

I'd imagine she'd also end up befriending Cherie Currie through Joan Jett.

I'd imagine Glenn Danzig would probably be impressed, if only because Karen's shift into punk was able to shock people in a way guys like him never could.

I don't know why, but I kind of imagine Karen would end up befriending someone like Sinhead O'connor if Karen's politics were to come up here.

I feel like Tom Waits is another person who would this transformation fascinating.

While I know we're probably a ways away from the 90s (assuming we even see any bit of that), but I'd imagine Kurt Cobain would be a fan of hers (probably Dave and Krist too).

On that note, I'd imagine she'd probably be cited as an influence on Riot grrrl acts (so maybe Bikini Kill, Hole, Kathleen Hanna, Kristen Pfaff for someone specific to TTL).

 

[MNM041]

However, that was only the second most surreal moments of my life, because of what happened about 15 years later..."

I'm genuinely curious about what this will lead to, if it does lead to anything.

 

[nick_crenshaw82]

I wonder who was influenced by Karen Carpenter OTL and who'll be influenced by Kari Carr ITTL.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

If not for the fact that @Geekhis Khan already said he may have enough pictures from me to finish TLIAW I might make this a pic of Kari Carr and Billy Idol.

And I appreciate them all! I saw you were already posting some in the Hensonverse Images thread.

Posted with permission from @Geekhis Khan

Yep, and that avenue is open your more from you or others. Hensonverse is a shared sandbox. Just don't violate Canon!

Quick question @Geekhis Khan, do you have plans to do any other TLIAWs set in the Hensonverse, or is this meant as a one off thing? I'm fine either way, but I am genuinely curious.

It depends on if any more such ideas strike. Won't rule it out, won't guarantee it.

Also, since so far, every artist I've openly speculated could come up has in some way, I suppose I'll keep going:

I won't have time to name drop them all, but guest posts could round some things out like Dan did with Henry Rollins.

I'd imagine she'd also end up befriending Cherie Currie through Joan Jett.

Makes sense.

I'd imagine Glenn Danzig would probably be impressed, if only because Karen's shift into punk was able to shock people in a way guys like him never could.

I honestly have no idea which way Glen Danzig would go on her. Perhaps initial skepticism then a Game Appreciates Game aspect, perhaps?

I don't know why, but I kind of imagine Karen would end up befriending someone like Sinhead O'connor if Karen's politics were to come up here.

Probably would get along to some degree, or at least support each other professionally. Mrs. Khan originally had the idea of Prince handing "Nothing Compares 2U" to Karen rather than Sinead, but there wasn't room.

I feel like Tom Waits is another person who would this transformation fascinating.

Definitely.

While I know we're probably a ways away from the 90s (assuming we even see any bit of that), but I'd imagine Kurt Cobain would be a fan of hers (probably Dave and Krist too).

Kurt doesn't specifically appear, but yes, he'd be supportive.

On that note, I'd imagine she'd probably be cited as an influence on Riot grrrl acts (so maybe Bikini Kill, Hole, Kathleen Hanna, Kristen Pfaff for someone specific to TTL).

I wonder who was influenced by Karen Carpenter OTL and who'll be influenced by Kari Carr ITTL.

📺...

 

[MNM041]

It depends on if any more such ideas strike. Won't rule it out, won't guarantee it.

Completely fair.

I won't have time to name drop them all, but guest posts could round some things out like Dan did with Henry Rollins.

I just wanted to be clear, when I wrote that out I was doing that partly as a joke. I wasn't exactly expecting those people to come up.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Clip: The Carpenters performing “Superstar”

Title Card:

You Said you’d be Coming Back this Way Again, Baby

[Clip Ends]

Stills and footage from Karen at this time, with her children and husband and their modest home on Long Island. “Superstar” continued to play in the background.

Narrator: Karen disappeared from public view once again, and for a long time, on an extended maternity leave that stretched into a second maternity leave when son Richard, called “Buddy”, was born. Attendance to The Jazz Passengers diminished back to its modest core fandom plus a few new converts without Karen there. The press, meanwhile, reacted to the sudden revelation in their usual high-handed way, hyping up the scandal of the marriage. Often it went down the usual “homewrecker” path, but often, the judgment was reserved for Fowlkes. People who’d never call themselves racist decried the marriage as somehow wrong, Fowlkes somehow the “wrong man” for Karen without articulating why. Those who knew her best, on the other hand, spoke out in favor of the union.

Clip: Joan Jett speaking to the press.

Joan: If you don’t get why Kari would go for a jazz musician with a gentle style and a great sense of humor who treats her with respect and dignity, then you don’t get Kari.

Narrator: Harry in particular went on the offensive.

Clip: Deborah Harry yelling at the media.

Deborah: Let the woman do her thing, you fucking jackals!

Narrator: Even Karen herself, who rarely spoke on such personal things, shed some light on things that made clear on why he was a good husband.

Clip: Karen in an interview with Larry King.

Karen: I mean, he’s sweet, he’s funny, he’s a clever and innovative musician, and he’s always there for me. I mean, when the pounds stuck to my hips after Rose was born, I was getting kind of bothered by it, and he was like, “no, babe, keep it! Looks good on ya!” And he meant it! I mean, I still hesitate when the dessert cart rolls by, but not for as long! And I don’t feel guilty about it later.

[Clip Ends]

More pictures of Karen and family, living a modest domestic life.

Narrator: Over time, the press feeding frenzy quieted, and Karen’s biggest challenge became making good with Curtis’s children from his first marriage, which needless to say was no mean feat. But eventually, via their younger half-siblings, they came to an amicable peace with her, though Curtis’s ex-wife has reportedly never spoken to her. But motherhood suited her, and those who know her maintained that she was happy with the arrangement, a mother and homemaker by choice. Now going by K.C. Fowlkes, she traded the stage for the nursery and the red carpet for the Safeway. And true to her earlier word, she found domestic life fulfilling in a new way.

Clip: Karen in an interview with Larry King.

Karen: I actually did enjoy it. I mean, getting no sleep sucks and nobody likes changing a diaper, Larry, but I love my kids and was blessed to have them. Sure, I’ll get a few side-eyes from some of the old busybodies for having kids with high melanin counts, but the joy in seeing first steps and hearing first words made up for it all! Had I never received that tape, I might have stayed on Long Island forever!

[Cut To…]

Clip: Bikini Kill performing “Sugar” in 1993

Music volume drops for the Narrator and later voiceover

Narrator: In 1993, with young Buddy swaddled in her arms, Karen popped in a demo tape that Joan Jett had sent her. It was the Riot Grrrl band Bikini Kill performing “Sugar”. “Listen to this,” Joan had written on it.

Karen (V.O.): It was raw, it was true, it was Poly Styrene meets Dead Kennedys. I’d heard some of the stuff they were starting to call “NuPunk” on the radio, and it was good, sure. That Green Day song had a good sticky bass and drum combo. But it was, I don’t know, too safe. Too commercial. Nirvana was better, of course. But this…this called back to the heyday of hardcore Punk. I called up Joan and said, “What the he-, excuse me, heck is this!” “Riot Grrrl!” she said. “Well…heck yeah, I replied! About da…arn time, sister!”

“Sugar” returns to full volume

Title Card:

Punk’s Not Dead

Clip: Karen in an interview with Larry King.

Karen: And so, I asked her for more. And she sends me more. Demo tapes, bootlegs, indie CDs, even some eight-millimeter Camcorder stuff! A lot of bands out of Olympia, Washington. Bratmobile, Heavens to Betsy, Suture, 7 Year Bitch. Oh! (puts hand over mouth) Sorry, Larry!

Larry: It’s OK.

Karen: And the subjects. Talk about pushing boundaries! They sang about rape. They sang about racism. They sang about body image. Talk about Punk! They even sang about periods! I mean, I never would have thought about singing about my period in the seventies or eighties. Even in Hari Kari!

Images and video footage from various Riot Grrrl and adjacent bands. Bratmobile’s “Bitch Theme” plays

Narrator: It hardly needs explaining why the new Riot Grrrl sound coming out of Olympia connected to Joan and Karen and Deborah in the way that it did. It was like the delivery on a promise they’d made fifteen years prior. The Olympia scene would expand quickly on word of mouth and indie CDs, with other female-fronted NuPunk bands springing up around the world. Slant 6 out of Washington DC, Emily’s Sassy Line out of California, Lobby Tramps out of Washington, DC, Huggy Bear out of Brighton, England, Willow World out of Osaka, Japan, and my personal favorite, Riot Goth band Jack Off Jill out of Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

Clip: Jack Off Jill’s “My Cat”

Volume fades for Narrator

Narrator: At first, Karen’s maternal duties kept her glued to Long Island, as she refused to hand off her kids to a hired nanny. So, she launched what she called her “Telephone Tag Production Team”.

Photos of Karen, Buddy in her arms, speaking on a phone.

Karen (V.O.): So, Larry, there I am with Rose at my feet and Buddy in my arms and a cell phone to my ear. I’d talk to Joan, I’d talk to Deborah, I’d talk to Prince and Sheila E. We’d call producers and labels. We did all we could to promote the new sounds. Joan set up in Olympia and entered active production. I played telephone tag with her and the labels. Finally, a chain of calls led me to talking with Mira Velimirovic at Fox, and she said, “we have exactly the production for this!” Not an album, but a movie! It was Tank Girl, of course!

[Clip Ends]

Footage from Tank Girl and behind the scenes. Karen can be seen in many of the behind-the-scenes bits. “My Cat” plays on in the background

This Timeline’s Tank Girl movie is different. Read All About It Here (Image: Wikimedia)

Narrator: Fox and Skeleton Crew Productions collaborated on this live action production of the Jamie Hewlett and Alan Martin postfeminist, post-apocalyptic indie comic about a Punk woman who lives in a tank and fights the power. Directed by Caroline Thompson and starring Helena Bonham Carter, the film performed modestly at the box office on its 1995 debut and is seen as both “of its time” and “ahead of its time.” But it quickly gained a huge cult following and kickstarted the careers of many of the Riot Grrrl bands whose music it featured, in particular Bikini Kill, whose “Rebel Girl” broke the Alternative Top 10, sold Double-Platinum, and became an anthem for a new generation of Punks.

Kari and Deborah Harry after working a production deal for 7 Year Bitch (Image generated by @nick_crenshaw)

Karen (V.O.): Tank Girl kicked down the door and the riot followed. We landed the Grrrls several deals. When Buddy was old enough for travel, I joined Joan in Washington and Cali and we went into active production, cleaning up some of the sound, giving some hints on how to craft something that will catch airplay without losing its teeth, and helping them Sell Up rather than Sell Out, as we liked to put it.

[Cut To…]

Clip: Kurt Loder on MTV News. The droning bass of “My Cat” can still be heard

Kurt: Joan Jett and Kari Carr have been front and center in producing and promoting the so-called “Riot Grrrl” sound, an edgy, feminist, female-fronted NuPunk subgenre that, thanks to the recent Fox film Tank Girl, has been kicking down doors everywhere.

(Image: WECB)

Clip: Bikini Kill doing a semi-ironic thrash cover of “Close to You”

[Cut To…]

Clip: Kathleen Hanna in an interview. “Close to You” still plays in the background

Kathleen: People laughed when Kari went Punk in ’82. Nobody’s laughing now. We grew up listening to Demolition and Hari Kari and The Blackhearts. If Karen Carpenter hadn’t sat in for D.H. Peligro that night, you might never have seen Bikini Kill or Bratmobile.

Narrator: And with their support for the Riot Grrrls, Joan Jett, Karen Carpenter, and Deborah Harry were soon rediscovered by a new generation, along with others like Poly Styrene, Patti Smith, and Nina Hagen. And as the 1990s continued and Buddy was out of diapers, Karen and Deborah knew that it was time to get the band back together…at least over Summer Break, and if it didn’t interfere with soccer practice.

Clip: News Announcer behind a desk

Announcer: In music news, a Hari Kari reunion tour was announced for the summer of 1997.

Narrator: It was just the latest in the growing Third Wave of Feminism, with Punk at the leading edge.

Clip: Dan Rather behind a desk

Dan: Is the future of Punk female? It seems so with the growing Riot Grrrl sound. That’s “Grrrl” with three Rs and no Is, mind you, like a primal growl.

[Clip Ends]

Footage of Hari Kari reunion tour. A live track of “Heaven Below the Earth” plays

Hari Kari performing live in 1997, Kari Carr just out of picture (Image: Wikipedia)

Narrator: Star, mother, producer, promoter…Karen seemed somehow able to do it all! She continued to support and mentor Riot Grrrl bands. She did a few collaborations with the Punk-Industrial supergroup Pigface, a band whose name held a special, ironic personal meaning for her. And she even found the time to repay an old friend.

Clip: Prince speaking to an interviewer.

Prince: So, I’d been given Percocet for the pain, and, well, (laughs) I’ll just be blunt, I couldn’t stop takin’ it. I kept it hidden real well. Hid it even from my band. Nobody knew. But Karen, she figured it out. She saw the signs. She’d seen it with her brother and, well, she and Sheila dragged in Bob Forrest and Flea, and, well, they staged the intervention. I wasn’t ready, but they were persistent and Bob and Flea had walked that walk and they knew how to speak about it. It was a long, hard fight, but they set me on the road to recovery.

[Clip Ends]

Narrator: But not even a living legend like Karen Carpenter could handle these juggled responsibilities forever. With the end of the Limited Reunion Tour, Karen Carpenter, exhausted from the twin responsibilities of motherhood and rocking out, returned to her modest home on Long Island to once again be a mother and only a mother. When she uncomfortably explained this decision to [Bikini Kill Drummer] Tobi Vail, Tobi told her, “Never be ashamed of being a good mother. Many girls grow up without one and it fucks ‘em up. Nothing anti-feminist about being a good mother. And what’s the point of freedom if you’re afraid to follow your love?” Karen has, for the time being, retired from music in the name of the domestic life she spoke fondly about in her youth. But while Karen Carpenter, and by extension Kari Carr, is in retirement, her legacy lives on.

 

[ejr1963]

VERY cool! It just got better and better! The whole package! A respected musician and producer, and - motherhood! I'm not the hugest Prince fan (though I will admit that every now and then I like to hear "1999"), but it's nice to see him surviving addiction.

BTW, you missed mentioning another well known Riot Grrrl act (oh yeah, and Riot Grrls did occasionally drift over towards the crossover metal side of things, which is when I really took notice of it) - L7. They may have been considered a tail end of grunge band (a little before Riot Grrl became a scene), but their ethos was very much in the Riot Grrl camp - in many ways more so than some of the bands that were mentioned. For instance, during the 1992 Reading Festival, Donita Sparks got so fed up with rowdy fans chucking mud at the band, that she pulled out her tampon (she was having her period), and chucked it out into the audience, yelling a foul epithet at the audience!

 

[MNM041]

Many girls grow up without one and it fucks ‘em up.

I'm kind of surprised Karen didn't touch upon her own upbringing after saying that. My understanding is that a lot of the issues Karen developed as result of Richard kind of being the golden child, and as a result I end up wondering if that's what she's thinking about when she said that.

 

[Dan]

For instance, during the 1992 Reading Festival, Donita Sparks got so fed up with rowdy fans chucking mud at the band, that she pulled out her tampon (she was having her period), and chucked it out into the audience, yelling a foul epithet at the audience!

I was in the crowd for that one. I only went for the Sunday because I wanted to see Nirvana. L7 were a bonus. They had to put up with A LOT of shit. I saw them in Sheffield supporting Faith No More too, that was just after they'd appeared on The Word so you can imagine the grief they got from that too.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Completely fair.

I just wanted to be clear, when I wrote that out I was doing that partly as a joke. I wasn't exactly expecting those people to come up.

VERY cool! It just got better and better! The whole package! A respected musician and producer, and - motherhood! I'm not the hugest Prince fan (though I will admit that every now and then I like to hear "1999"), but it's nice to see him surviving addiction.

BTW, you missed mentioning another well known Riot Grrrl act (oh yeah, and Riot Grrls did occasionally drift over towards the crossover metal side of things, which is when I really took notice of it) - L7. They may have been considered a tail end of grunge band (a little before Riot Grrl became a scene), but their ethos was very much in the Riot Grrl camp - in many ways more so than some of the bands that were mentioned. For instance, during the 1992 Reading Festival, Donita Sparks got so fed up with rowdy fans chucking mud at the band, that she pulled out her tampon (she was having her period), and chucked it out into the audience, yelling a foul epithet at the audience!

Yes, I left a few off the table. I largely overlooked L7 for the same reason as Hole: I've been trained by the Long Plastic Hallway to classify them under "Grunge", which is doubly ludicrous given how much overlap there is there. I mean Tobi Vale was mentioned as a "muse" for Kurt Cobain and Olympia is like 60 mi/100 km from Seattle. People live in Olympia and commute to Seattle every day! But glad you mentioned them!

I'm kind of surprised Karen didn't touch upon her own upbringing after saying that. My understanding is that a lot of the issues Karen developed as result of Richard kind of being the golden child, and as a result I end up wondering if that's what she's thinking about when she said that.

Writing tip: sometimes the loudest words are the ones not spoken. Subtext can be powerful without elaboration.

I was in the crowd for that one. I only went for the Sunday because I wanted to see Nirvana. L7 were a bonus. They had to put up with A LOT of shit. I saw them in Sheffield supporting Faith No More too, that was just after they'd appeared on The Word so you can imagine the grief they got from that too.

I saw Faith No More in Germany (Rock Am Ring '94) during the Angel Dust years. Van Halen and Bon Jovi headlined, but IMO FNM stole the show. They were an Epic (pun absolutely intended) live band. Alas never got to see Nirvanna and L7.

---

OK folks, tomorrow is the official end of the TLIAW, but plenty of room for Sidebars and maybe future follow-on posts! See you tomorrow AM!

Stay Tuned... 📺

 

[Dan]

Excerpt from "Oblivious, Oregon", Henry Rollins, live at Shepherd's Bush Empire, London, 2004.

"Just before I left for the USO Tour in Congo, I got a call from Ben Folds. I kinda know Ben, we'd played a lot of the same festivals in Europe, we waved at each other but that was about it.
"Hi Henry, it's Ben, I'm producing a record and I want you involved".
"OK, you need someone to go get pizza and drinks, empty ashtrays? I can do that but I'm not scoring drugs for you"
"No, I want you involved in the record itself"
"No way, that's insane"
"Oh Henry, you have no idea, it's a record for William Shatner"
Now I know you've all been high, I mean contemplating the nature of the universe high, but how many of you have been "Ben Folds, William Shatner and Henry Rollins on one record High? Right?
So I have to answer "Ben, that sounds fucking insane - I'm in"
"Cool, I know you're away, come over when you get back and we'll make it happen"
So I go to Congo, I play the shows, I meet the troops and I take a 28 hour journey from Kinshasa to Johannesburg, South Africa, Johannesburg to London, onto New York and from New York I land in Nashville.
I have had no sleep, I am hallucinating, I get in a cab and go to the studio.
That's where I meet William Shatner. He is 70 but has all the energy of a toddler that has discovered crack cocaine.
"HENRY! Good To Meet You, I'm Bill"
"Good to meet you too Sir"
"BEN, Play Him The Track"
Ben plays this track, it's a Bill on a 3 minute rant about things he can't get behind to a drum beat.
"HENRY, I Want To Do Another Song Like This But With You".
"Well, I think it might seem a bit odd, a record with two rant songs, it'd be lopsided, like it would roll like an egg, how about we redo this one, I'll say one, you say one, like call and response"
"HENRY, That's A Marvellous Idea"
So I write a list of about a hundred things I can't get behind and three minutes later I hand it over to Ben, he cuts it down to about ten, we work it in, rehearse and we go.
"Oh guys, I got us a new drummer, they're gonna sit in on this as the session guy had to go"
No problem. I have no idea who Ben got or how he got them, but this new drummer is insane, like part punk, part jazz, heavy as the first four Black Sabbath albums combined. Bill starts, I start and we're golden. We record four or five takes and the drumming is just getting crazier. it's awesome and the energy is just incredible.
"BEN, HENRY, I'm Thinking We Need A Guitar I Hear A Guitar, What Do You Think"?
"I'm good" I say, I mean all I hear is a high pitched ringing in my ear since 1982...
"OK" says Ben, "I got a guy, let me just grab him"
Oh Cool, Ben just happens to have a guy, Ben opens the door and this guy walks in.
I AM IN SHOCK!
In walks probably one of the worlds greatest guitar players, he's played with David Bowie, Prince and oh yeah, King Fuckin Crimson!
Adrian Belew.
My mind is blown, I worship this guy like a GOD. I start to walk towards him and Ben is like "DON'T, Henry. Do not slobber on him, do not breath on him, do not paw him with that sweaty excuse for a hand, just NO"
Now like I said, you've all been high, but never Ben Folds, William Shatner, Henry Rollins and Adrian Belew all on one record high.
We listen to the track, he nods, the mics come out, the drummer starts, the energy is absolutely insane, we record another version, it is absolutely golden.
Bill looks up, "You Want To Do One More Henry"?
"I can always go one more"
we look at Adrian, he's like fuck it, let's go
Ben Buzzes the intercom to the drummer who's in the booth next door "OK, You ready to go one more"
"Sure, let's do it, make it so Captain" comes a voice from the booth.

A familiar voice
A voice I know I should know, and I can't place it. But I know that voice from somewhere...
We turn around and do one more.
We are gasping like spent fish, the song is done, Bill is absolutely bouncing and is taking us all for dinner.
Then the drummer joins us in the studio from her booth.

Now, you've been high. I mean really fucking high. You understand the reason for every atom high, even.
But you have never been Ben Folds, William Shatner, Henry Rollins, Adrian Belew and Karen motherfucking Carpenter all on one fucking record High.
Cheech and Chong have never been that fucking high while smoking their way through the gross national product of Jamaica listening to Frank Zappa. We are talking so high you duck under the Hubble Space Telescope high at this point to get to this combination.

"I can't believe you never called me, you jerk"
I have never been so embarrassed, then elated in one moment in time at the same time. She remembered me. Oh Shit, she remembered me!
Luckily, Bill saved the day.
"HENRY, KAREN, Why Don't We Get Lunch? My Guy From The Eastern Seaboard Is Flying In Today With Freshly Caught Scallops, They'll Be Wonderful.
Now I have no idea what a scallop is. And I guess Karen could read the look on my face. She starts playing on how this guy must be special to catch scallops, and how he does it bare handed.
"Bare handed" I asked?
"Oh yes, scallops are quite a thing to catch, aren't they Bill, especially bare handed, they can be ever so dangerous" she chimed in.
By now Bill has caught on too. "Oh Yes HENRY, Out There Alone, Underwater, In The Wild! It Requires Nerves Of Steel"
And I swallowed it.
Hook, Line and Sinker...
It was an awesome lunch, Bill is super polite, he's talking to everyone, taking photos and signing autographs, while Karen, Ben, Adrian and I are talking like we'ver known each other forever - it's the Bill effect.
And so, you may have been high, You may have consumed more drugs than Timothy Leary, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison and the entire writing staff of the Banana Splits, but you have never been Ben Folds, William Shatner, Adrian Belew, Karen Carpenter and Henry Rollins, sat in a 5 star restaurant in Nashville eating scallops, (which I now know are shellfish by the way), high.

At the end of it, Karen gave me her number again.
Did I call it this time?

Yes
And I'm pleased to say I've had my friend Karen as a guest on my radio show a couple of times, we talked music, we talked life, she is a total fucking delight, an absolute Goddess and the toughest motherfucker in rock and roll and I WILL TAKE NO ARGUMENT!

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, THAT was the single, greatest, most surreal moment of my life so far.

Thank you very much, you've been awesome.
Thank you

GOODNIGHT"

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Clip: Karen, looking older and fuller, leads a camera crew through a modest living room scattered with toys, many of them lined up in perfect rows.

Karen: And here’s where we live most of our lives, as you (laughs) can probably see!

Heavens to Betsy’s “I Wanna’ Be a Karen,” a song modeled on Ramones’s “I Wanna be Sedated”, plays (“I’ll smile gently as I purr at your feet…I wanna be a Karen! A gentle little kitty with the claws underneath…I wanna be a Karen!”)

For reference

Title Card:

Only Just Begun

(“Ba baa buh baah, buh ba baa buh baah…I wanna be a Karen! Ba baa buh baah, buh ba baa buh baah…I wanna be a Karen!”)

Bikini Kill Drummer Tobi Vail (Image: Far out Magazine)

Clip: Tobi Vail speaking to Kurt Loder. “I Wanna Be a Karen” plays on in the background

Tobi: Karen Carpenter? She’s a fucking goddess and an inspiration. My dad and grandpa were drummers, but I really picked up the sticks when I saw her on that ’76 TV special. I mean, chicks could drum too! And then I saw her on Letterman…holy fuck, Kurt, chicks could hammer! She hung with the fuckin’ DKs! Arguably overshadowed them! She could do Rich and Krupa. She could do Morello. She could do Ringo. And now she’s hammering out Peligro! Un-fucking-real!!

[End Clip]

Deborah and Karen in 2004 (Image by @nick_crenshaw82)

Footage and stills of Karen at home. “I Wanna Be a Karen” plays on in the background

Narrator: Karen’s retirement took her back to her modest gated community somewhere in central Long Island, the actual location of which has been kept secret to help preserve her family’s privacy. Part of the impetus for this retirement, right at the start of her third wave of fame, came due to family health needs.

Footage and photos of Karen with Buddy at various ages

Larry (V.O.): And then in 1998 things changed with your family.

Karen (V.O.): Yeah, Buddy was four and he was diagnosed with Autism. I mean, it wasn’t exactly a surprise. Buddy was always a little different from the other kids, and raising him was different than with Rose. I mean, I knew raising boys was different than girls, I had a brother, you know, but this was more than just X vs. Y.

Clip: Karen in the interview with Larry King. The chords of “I Wanna Be a Karen” still plays faintly in the background

Larry: You retired once again to care for him.

Karen: And get him the supports he needs! I mean, rather than try and find someone or something to blame, I accepted Buddy for who he is and did my research. It’s still not well understood and there’s a lot of misinformation out there on the net, but I knew that he needed reading supports and speech and occupational therapy and special study aids at school, and that’s where I had to get mean.

Larry: Do tell.

Karen: So, the school district was rather old fashioned and had a board and principal more concerned with cutting costs than helping kids…or at least that’s how I saw it. So, I had to fight, fight like the smallest girl in the mosh pit, to get Buddy his constitutionally entitled supports. I attended education plan meetings, school board meetings, briefings from activists and advocates. Thankfully, I had a secret weapon, a sort of good cop/bad cop routine that I called “Karen/Kari”. (smiles)

Larry: Karen/Kari.

Karen: (steel in her eyes and voice) Yeah, if you’re polite and respectful with me, then you get to talk to sweet, kind, modest Karen who is oh-so-polite and respectful. Karen will smile and work with you through thick and thin and write kind words about you to your boss. But if you cross me, or lie to me, or disrespect me or my son or try and bullshit me…sorry, Larry, went a little Kari there. Then Kari comes out. The woman who once threw a beer bottle at an aggressive fan who couldn’t take “no” for an answer. I mean, I’m never loud and I’m never violent, but I’m in total control and not going to accept anything less than what my son is entitled to. Whether you meet Karen or Kari is up to you. I prefer the former, but I won’t hesitate to go with the latter when Buddy’s future is on the line.

[Clip Ends]

Photos of Karen with Buddy and Rose or at school board meetings. The chords of “I Wanna Be a Karen” still plays faintly in the background

Narrator: The 2002 interview took the world by storm as mothers everywhere, and indeed women everywhere, latched on to the Karen/Kari dynamic. Soon “Being a Karen” and “Being a Kari” became part of the lexicon for, respectively, being the sweet and polite person who always treats others with respect and dignity and who wants to say nice things about you to your manager, and the hard, cold-hearted bitch who gets shit done and won’t accept anything less than what’s right. [1]

Footage and photos of Karen sitting in the House of Representatives or meeting with various musicians of various races, sexualities, and gender identities as well as movie stars and producers. Queercore band The Third Sex’s “Mombies” plays

Narrator: Karen continues to fight on for Buddy and other kids like him, testifying at the New York State Assembly or in DC before Congress about the need for more funding for Special Needs education and supports. As she put it: “I once rocked the house, now I rock the House!” But even in retirement, Karen continues to support Riot Grrrl and other NuPunk bands, even helping to expand the scope to include more non-white, Queercore, and other non-normative bands, which has caused some controversy within the scene. As such, suburban Long Island has become a strange sort of Mecca for outcasts and Punks as they meet to discuss production deals and Punk drumming styles while Disney’s Unbound or Maleficent plays in the background and Rose leads Barbie and Bubbles through a set of Minor Threat covers.

Footage of Buddy at his mom’s drum kit and Rose kicking a soccer ball

Narrator: And if you’re wondering where these two worlds meet, the familial and the musical, ultimately it would be music that brought the family all together.

Karen (V.O.): So, Buddy was this very quiet child. He didn’t say much and had trouble saying it when he did. Played by himself and had a hard time connecting to anyone. Curtis and I would try to reach him through words and then through music, but he’d at first seem to ignore us and just line up his trucks, and grunt or bob his head on occasion. But one day while I was working on a set, Rose noticed that his grunts and motion were in time with the music. So, we started to experiment. The more complex the rhythm and time signature, the more obvious it became that, although it wasn’t obvious, he was indeed keeping time! She was right! By age five, he’d be boppin’ along. I handed him a drum and a stick, and it was like the most natural thing in the world for him to tap along. As he’s grown, he’s been taking to it like a fish to water!

Narrator: Buddy has since shown a prodigal aptitude for music of all sorts. Hand him an instrument, and in no time, he’s got it all but mastered. Rose, on the other hand, prefers sports to music. But so did her mother…at first.

Karen in 2005 (Image generated by @nick_crenshaw82)

Retrospective images of Karen through the years leading up to the mid-2000s when the episode aired. It includes images of her with Narrator Jude Barsi.

Narrator: Karen Carpenter’s legacy is long, from the “Chick who drums” through the first high of The Carpenters through tragedy and loss and reinvention and the long fight to a new career peak, inspiring many of us, myself included, along the way. And from there to retreat, a secret life, and marriage and family, and then newfound purpose as first a promoter and now an activist. Through it all, Karen Carpenter remains a Legend. Time will tell whether Hari Kari ever tours again, but whether you think of her as Karen Carpenter, Kari Carr, or K.C. Fowlkes, this artist and living legend will continue to rock the world into the new millennium.

Clip: Karen speaking to Larry King.

Larry: So, Karen, what comes next? Any plans to return to music production, perhaps once your kids are grown? Perhaps a family band?

Karen: Well, time will tell, of course, but yeah, we’ve certainly thought about it!

Larry: So, more to come from the Carpenters?

Karen: Are you kidding, Larry? (winks at camera) We’ve only just begun!

Larry chuckles. Fades to silence as Interview comes to an end. Karen smiles brightly, and looks wistfully into the camera, waving. It all ends on a single, damped A Major chord.

[Cut To Credits]

Credits roll as a Punk-influenced 7 Year Bitch cover of “We’ve Only Just Begun” plays.

---

[1] Yes, being a “Karen” in this timeline will mean roughly the opposite of what it means in ours. And being a “Kari” is not the same as our timeline’s “Karen” either. OTL’s “Karens” are considered out of control and entitled. TTL’s “Karis” are considered in control and fighting for their rights. Both “Karen” and “Kari” are largely considered complementary things to call a woman, though both terms will occasionally be used ironically as an insult, and context should always be considered (like when a Southern woman says “bless your heart”). Most women in this timeline will attest to their “Karen vs. Kari” sides.

 

[Nathanoraptor]

Great conclusion, @Geekhis Khan!

[1] Yes, being a “Karen” in this timeline will mean roughly the opposite of what it means in ours. And being a “Kari” is not the same as our timeline’s “Karen” either. OTL’s “Karens” are considered out of control and entitled. TTL’s “Karis” are considered in control and fighting for their rights. Both “Karen” and “Kari” are largely considered complementary things to call a woman, though both terms will occasionally be used ironically as an insult, and context should always be considered (like when a Southern woman says “bless your heart”). Most women in this timeline will attest to their “Karen vs. Kari” sides.

I do wonder if, since language evolves, the meaning of the terms change - the former referring to using exaggeratedly faked (or obviously sarcastic) politeness to treat people in a manner that's more patronising than anything else and the latter being snappy and impatient (and veeery angry to a perceived slight).

(Basically, the Karen will loudly say that of course it's not your fault you forgot to write down "no mushrooms"... in a tone of voice that implies it very much is and the Kari will snap at you for forgetting to write down "no mushrooms"... when you didn't forget, but the order was so insanely detailed, nobody in the kitchen could keep track)

This is principally because I like the idea that retail staff ITTL are debating which is worse - the one who treats you like you're a child or the one who morphs into an uber-witch at the slightest perceived disrespect.

(I have dealt with both categories - I'd rather deal with the latter...).