Status
Not open for further replies.
This is up there with the best of the best timelines on this site, KingSweden24! Detailed without being obtuse, dramatic without being too over-the-top, and in many cases, just plain believable. You have a talent for showing imperfect human reactions to events and their consequences in logical sequence. I love it! Keep up the good work - who knows, if the timeline goes on long enough, maybe you'll get another Turtledove for 2023...

A question, if I may: what is an interesting country/part of the world in this timeline that you feel you haven't touched on enough? I'm keen to see!
 
I think the terrain in many places with the rivers, hills and mountains will restrict any later use of tanks by the US. I see more Armored Cars and Light Tanks used in the west as a form of recon and rapid response unit. Has the US or Confederacy started using women and imported labor for factory work or positions vacated by men?
 
Its more the political intrigue, you shine at. Although the campaigns are really detailed and enjoyable.
Written like an actual history book, tbh.
Thanks! That's definitely what I find more enjoyable, then I can write all my weird obsessions with airports and transit in the EU thread lol
This is up there with the best of the best timelines on this site, KingSweden24! Detailed without being obtuse, dramatic without being too over-the-top, and in many cases, just plain believable. You have a talent for showing imperfect human reactions to events and their consequences in logical sequence. I love it! Keep up the good work - who knows, if the timeline goes on long enough, maybe you'll get another Turtledove for 2023...

A question, if I may: what is an interesting country/part of the world in this timeline that you feel you haven't touched on enough? I'm keen to see!
What a kind thing to say! Welcome aboard and I'm glad you're enjoying the TL, thank you for reading.

Hmm. I'd say I've probably skimped more than I should on the Middle East outside of general "Ottoman" stuff, Egypt in particular, though that may in part be because I've written myself into a bit of a corner with the Ottoman realms and am not totally sure what to do there. I've also ignored IMO Southeastern Asia, like Vietnam, German Cambodia, Siam, etc a bit more than I probably should.

The big gaping hole admittedly is Japan, which post-SJW I haven't checked in on much, largely because in the interim I haven't had much interesting to write about there. We'll get more Japan content later on, but that's another part of the world where I have a vague idea what I want to do with just haven't quite worked out the execution yet.
I think the terrain in many places with the rivers, hills and mountains will restrict any later use of tanks by the US. I see more Armored Cars and Light Tanks used in the west as a form of recon and rapid response unit. Has the US or Confederacy started using women and imported labor for factory work or positions vacated by men?
Agreed. A lot of armored light infantry, infantry support tanks and maybe armored mobile artillery platforms becomes more the norm than the trench-buster tanks of OTL's WW1, though trying to break through the Outer and Inner Lines at Nashville will probably see some experimentation with heavy armor once its obvious that cavalry is a death sentence, as Farnsworth just discovered at Paducah

Yes to both for women, imported labor moreso in the US. I have some updates for later in 1914 earmarked for that topic specifically in fact, so I'm glad you asked.
 
Yes to both for women, imported labor moreso in the US. I have some updates for later in 1914 earmarked for that topic specifically in fact, so I'm glad you asked.
Considering that one of the things that we have been told that royally hits the Liberals hard in the post war is a "botched demobilization scheme," I'm strongly suspecting that this imported labor is going to be a large part of it. I can just see some in the Liberals pushing for the wartime government intervention to be pulled back, and then when all those demobilized men are just thrown back into the labor pool, while during the war years all this immigration has been going on full steam... yeeeeah that's not gonna end well.
 
Considering that one of the things that we have been told that royally hits the Liberals hard in the post war is a "botched demobilization scheme," I'm strongly suspecting that this imported labor is going to be a large part of it. I can just see some in the Liberals pushing for the wartime government intervention to be pulled back, and then when all those demobilized men are just thrown back into the labor pool, while during the war years all this immigration has been going on full steam... yeeeeah that's not gonna end well.
Hit the nail on the head here
 
Was Shiloh a battle ITTL? Being a week before Cinco de Mayo and all. There's likely to be fighting there in this war. Any news of the war on the Rivers? I recall the US made a bunch of boats that could be delivered to the river by rail.
 
The French Orient
"...longstanding practice of bringing "French Orientals" back to the metropole, usually as the wives of lay missionaries or members of the Foreign Legion, had given way since around the start of Napoleon V's reign to shifting towards a primarily student population. In tandem with the decline of the proportion of French-Orientals of Korean descent with the sharp decline in French influence in what Paris still regarded as their rightful protectorate, [1] the internal makeup of the demographic went from overwhelmingly female and poor veteran men to a more affluent cohort who often had already enjoyed the French school system in their native land and now were being educated, often in the law, to join the civil service back home. With the French academy still largely conservative and Catholic, the elite mission schools of the colonial Orient were the main source of students, who the French Colonial Service hoped and intended would further their studies in the Metropole, inculcate their "Frenchness," and return with this knowledge and renewed commitment to France to instill the same on their countrymen as administrators and the new bureaucratic elite.

This did not work for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, the experience of the Oriental students in France was generally overwhelmingly negative. The French had long taken a view that their colonial empire was, unlike the British approach to India or the savagery displayed by Germans and Belgians overseas, one of merit. Through their civilizing mission, anyone who joined the Foreign Legion or converted to Catholicism could, in theory, "become French," whereas in England an Indian would always be Indian, so on and so forth. That a huge number of French soldiers and missionaries took Oriental wives and brought them home was a point of pride to the Colonial Service, who from their perch in Paris saw it as an easy solution to France's demographic disadvantages compared to high-birth neighbors and a way to create instant and clear familial ties between colons and citoyens. The issue was that this was theory; Oriental wives were seldom accepted in broader society and Foreign Legionnaires by the mid-1910s found themselves often living in concentrated ethnic enclaves, sometimes even denied attendance in Church parishes of ethnic Frenchmen. The half-Oriental children of these common mixed marriages were typically bullied at school and dismissed as "mongrels" by their peers, sometimes into adulthood. Oriental students, thus, suffered much of the same treatment upon arriving in the Metropole. They were discriminated against at university by their professors and those who wished it were often denied access to the stultified academy; practicing law in France as an Oriental was virtually impossible. Racism and violence towards Orientals in Paris in particular was not uncommon. Politically they had virtually zero support, for most radical and socialist Frenchmen were anti-imperialists who viewed such students as an ideological enemy in their project to dismantle the colonial empire.

The broader issue, though, was the increasing intensity of tensions in the Orient itself. While the Code de l'Indigenat, one of the most infamous implementations of institutional racism in the history of European imperialism, was in theory meant to apply only to Algeria and, increasingly, West Africa, [2] colonial administrators in the late Second Empire were increasingly careerists rotated around the entire French colonial empire rather than establishing themselves at a single posting, and much of the French-born civil service and colonial military command in the Orient came to be men who had served in the very different Indigeniste [3] context of Africa and applied many of the attitudes and practices they had absorbed in Algeria or Dakar to Indochina. Natives were expelled from civil service positions ad hoc, state-sanctioned violence became more arbitrary, and demands on agricultural plantations grew, as did the cruelty of the foremen responsible for them towards the peasantry bound to them. This occurred at a moment where the Oriental intelligentsia, both in Indochina and Formosa, was becoming increasingly hostile to the French administration, both for domestic and international reasons. The symbiotic escalation of tension between colonizer and colonized that stemmed from Pan-Asian liberationist ideology against the sheer panic that said idealism had instilled in European colonial authorities in the wake of the successful Philippine Revolution and collapse of the Qing Empire had spread; the same impulses that would lead to 1915's Ghadar Mutiny in India's Punjab region were festering in Tonkin and Formosa, where Sinophilic elites who spoke Chinese imported revolutionary ideology that pushed for an indigenous cultural and economic renaissance free of European meddling.

Ironically enough, the people to whom such sentiment appealed the most were the social peers and families of those students in Paris who were now organizing cross-national ideological networks and turning increasingly hostile to French authority. Radicalized abroad, when they returned home they found fertile ground for both homegrown and European revolutionary ideologies and a local administration that was increasingly unwilling to compromise with locals, only creating more converts to their cause..."

- The French Orient

[1] So mea culpa here that my approach to Korea's foreign policy and who, exactly, it is a protectorate of has been a bit all over the place. We went from it being a French protectorate/tributary, and them fighting a war with China to keep it that way officially, to now having Russia and Japan reach an "understanding" on their spheres of influence within it, and the US basically buying Port Hamilton off of Seoul. Essentially my thinking here is that France has the equivalent of a treaty port/concession in Busan and a "sphere" in its hinterland, which considering Japanese strategic concerns is a big problem in terms of Paris-Tokyo relations
[2] The French are, uh, going to have a bit of a different reputation ITTL. Like, "South Africa on steroids" different.
[3] Here we have our Franco-apartheid equivalent term. We'll see if I stick with it
 
Was Shiloh a battle ITTL? Being a week before Cinco de Mayo and all. There's likely to be fighting there in this war. Any news of the war on the Rivers? I recall the US made a bunch of boats that could be delivered to the river by rail.
It would have been, absolutely. That area is definitely going to see some combat, though different contexts and all (or maybe not, since the strategic reasons remain the same).

The riverine fight largely went in favor towards the US on the Ohio at least, which was a prerequisite for the current campaign in the Kentucky from a logistic standpoint. The US hasn't really tried to press their advantage further south towards Memphis and beyond quite yet, though
 
Politically they had virtually zero support, for most radical and socialist Frenchmen were anti-imperialists who viewed such students as an ideological enemy in their project to dismantle the colonial empire.
Interestingly, there were a disturbingly large number of socialist imperialists in France particularly, often viewing things through an almost Trotskyist context of spreading capitalism, and eventually, communism to the other peoples of the world. However, that doesn't exclude the racism - or just simply anti-clerical prejudice - that the Orientals would find even if they try to appeal to the underground socialist movements for help.
 
Suffice to say the cozy relationship between Paris and Richmond that has persisted since the POD will endure!
Interestingly, there were a disturbingly large number of socialist imperialists in France particularly, often viewing things through an almost Trotskyist context of spreading capitalism, and eventually, communism to the other peoples of the world. However, that doesn't exclude the racism - or just simply anti-clerical prejudice - that the Orientals would find even if they try to appeal to the underground socialist movements for help.
Huh! The more you know. Cant say I’m surprised considering how kaleidoscopic a lot of ideologies in France at that time were
Having the guys behind the Algiers junta, or similar characters, running France for a half century was never going to end well for anyone who is the wrong sort of person in whatever colonies France still has
Yeah, exactly. Of course Algeria will definitely get the worst of it since unlike West Africa it was considered an integral part of France rather than a colony
 
The riverine fight largely went in favor towards the US on the Ohio at least, which was a prerequisite for the current campaign in the Kentucky from a logistic standpoint. The US hasn't really tried to press their advantage further south towards Memphis and beyond quite yet, though
Great recent chapters! This reply in particular has me imagining some ambitious secret raids down rivers into the Confederacy to cause some chaos. Could be very interesting! Especially if the early ones don’t always go as planned and it’s a bit of a learning experience…
 
Great recent chapters! This reply in particular has me imagining some ambitious secret raids down rivers into the Confederacy to cause some chaos. Could be very interesting! Especially if the early ones don’t always go as planned and it’s a bit of a learning experience…
Thanks!

Yeah, it’s something I’ll need to cover more later. One thing I was pondering just today was partisan activity and saboteurs going behind both lines. Not sure exactly how structured that would be/was as a form of warfare in the WW1 era compared to the SOE in WW2, for instance
 
With the French academy still largely conservative and Catholic, the elite mission schools of the colonial Orient were the main source of students, who the French Colonial Service hoped and intended would further their studies in the Metropole, inculcate their "Frenchness," and return with this knowledge and renewed commitment to France to instill the same on their countrymen as administrators and the new bureaucratic elite.

This did not work for a variety of reasons.
Is there any OTL instance of this strategy not backfiring in a drastic way for the metropole?
 
Is there any OTL instance of this strategy not backfiring in a drastic way for the metropole?
The only way for this not to backfire is to actually not treat the colony like trash and place its residents on equal footing with the metropole, so that would count on the unlikely event that the metropole's residents would stop being racists. In this case, the colony would become a province like any other, and be able to elect their own representatives to send to the metropole. But this rarely ever happens because imperialism is usually predicated on the metropole being inherently superior. The closest case might be the Philippines and the US, if only because the US slowly gave them autonomy, with FDR's administration deciding to slowly transition the country into independence.
 
Is there any OTL instance of this strategy not backfiring in a drastic way for the metropole?
None that I can think of, no
The only way for this not to backfire is to actually not treat the colony like trash and place its residents on equal footing with the metropole, so that would count on the unlikely event that the metropole's residents would stop being racists. In this case, the colony would become a province like any other, and be able to elect their own representatives to send to the metropole. But this rarely ever happens because imperialism is usually predicated on the metropole being inherently superior. The closest case might be the Philippines and the US, if only because the US slowly gave them autonomy, with FDR's administration deciding to slowly transition the country into independence.
Spain pulled this off relatively successfully ITTL with Cuba (even re-colonizing the DR) but the cultural similarities between Spain and her Caribbean possessions is very different than France and Algeria/Vietnam/Taiwan. (And Spain of course very notably didn’t do the same thing as the Insular Provinces with the Philippines despite there being a very large lobby, including future President Jose Rizal, pushing for them to do just so, and we (and all of Asia’s revolutionaries) saw how that worked out for them)

Like you said, pulling it off is predicated on the entire reasoning of hard imperialism going away. Even the OTL/TTL US, with its “soft imperialism” did not exactly tolerate pushback from the smaller states of the Western Hemisphere
 
[2] The French are, uh, going to have a bit of a different reputation ITTL. Like, "South Africa on steroids" different.
imrs.php.jpeg

German foreign minister Heinz Kissinger meets with American Secretary of State Richard nixon to discuss the coordination of support for Panafricanist rebels against the French State, 1971
 
View attachment 796961
German foreign minister Heinz Kissinger meets with American Secretary of State Richard nixon to discuss the coordination of support for Panafricanist rebels against the French State, 1971
Blursed image… haha
Nixon as Secretary of State is.....frightening to some degree, but works/fits amazingly well.
It’s actually an idea I’ve toyed with a bit. It both fits Nixon’s policy interests and fits my rule of no OTL US Presidents being President
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top