Discussion: Carpathian Realm

[Marko]

Before I undertake the project of writing a timeline that I think no one has tried to do, Croatia in the Carpathians I would like to discuss the subject and hear the opinions other members of this site have on the posible changes to the world.

In the period between 7th-11th century Croats(Croat tribes) were the most widespread Slavic people scatered from from vally of river Saale in Germany in the west to upper reaches of river Dniester in the east and from upper Vistula in the north to Crete in the south. The centres of their habitation were Croatian dutchy/kingdom on the Adriatic coast, Slavnik dutchy in eastern Bohemia, area around Krakow in southern Poland and what is today Carpathian Ruthenia in Ukraine. All of these areas suffered a crisis on the turn of the 10th to 11th century.

The Croats around Krakow were subjugated by either Mieszko or Boleslaw between 970-999.
The Slavnik dutchy was subjugated by Boleslaus II and the family was exterminated save for 3 members while their town Libice was sacked in 995.
The Croats in "Carpathian Ruthenia" were attacked by Vladimir the Great in 992 but had to abandon the campaign, the Croats were subjugated under his successors Sviatopolk and Yaroslav.
The Croats on the Adriatic suffered a succession crisis that evolved into a civil war from 997 to cca 1002 which involved Venice and ERE supporting one side and Bulgarians (and maybe Hungarians) supporting the other side.

Only the Adriatic Croatia managed to survive and consolidate but it took more than 30 years before it was a regional local power and another 20 before it was once more a regional power it was before the civil war.

So my idea is to have Adriatic Croatia colapsing and being divided by Venetia/ERE, Hungary and Bulgaria. In other words the people would remain and over time assimilate into other groups in the area but the idea of state would disapear. On the other hand Croats around Krakow manage to resist Piast rulers for a few years more with the major PoD being Sobeslav Slavnik returning early from Germany and catching Boleslaus II besieging Libice, routing the besieging army and killing Boleslaus. With the power of the Premyslid seriously weakened and Boleslaus III and Vladivoy (Boleslaus II heirs) weren't realy ruler material Sobeslav consolidates his domains and comes to rescue of Croats around Krakow that become part of their domain and further relations are fostered through a marriange with a daughter of local tribal leader. While his heir gets Croats in "Carpathian Ruthenia" in his domain.

So Carpathian Croatia cca 1015


I understand that the main butterfly would be Boleslaw the Brave not being as great as he was but am interested what you others have to say.


Cheers

 

[abc123]

Intresting. Subscribed.

 

[RGB]

Like White Croats?

Interesting. You might want to research some of the archeology in the area, there are IIRC some cities that fell right around the Pecheneg invasions, but may have been significant before that.

 

[Thande]

I see, it's a Thermo-style ethnic displacement, albeit a bit less crazy (he had the South Slavs end up in France!)

 

[Marko]

Like White Croats?

Interesting. You might want to research some of the archeology in the area, there are IIRC some cities that fell right around the Pecheneg invasions, but may have been significant before that.

Are you thinking about the site near Stiljsko, that might have been mentioned in Arab works of the time as Držvab(though most think that was Arab name for Krakow). The site and its direct surounding is estimated to have had between 30 and 40 thousand people which was around the size of Kiev of that time. The eastern foothills of Carpathians contain over 200 Gradišta (Slavic name for a type of settlement that is between a classic early medieval Burg and a hillfort type settlement), of that number 35 could be linked to the Croats living in the region, though I am yet to find a convicing article that would explain on what material evidence that conclusion was made, as it currently stand I am inclined to suspect geographycal location was the main factor.

One of the reasons I am working on this timeline is because I was supposed to go on a six week excavation somewhere south of L'vov but due to some administrative burocratic whatnot at my univeristy the colaboration with the Ukranians got postponed till next summer.

Another interesting thing that also inspired me to work on this timeline is a diplomatic document dated 1243. that speaks about the movement of a group of Karaim Turks from Crimea to Halich/Galicia-Volhynia and dates it at the time of Danylo I Romanovych naming him "King of Croatia"!? Though today it is know that the document is actually from either late 17th or early 18th century it is mighty suspicious why would a local forgerer claim Danylo, a very well known king be king of Croatia, the only explanation is that in those parts such a statement would not be seen as suspicious or strange because otherwise the forgery would make no sense.


Cheers

 

[RGB]

Are you thinking about the site near Stiljsko, that might have been mentioned in Arab works of the time as Držvab(though most think that was Arab name for Krakow). The site and its direct surounding is estimated to have had between 30 and 40 thousand people which was around the size of Kiev of that time. The eastern foothills of Carpathians contain over 200 Gradišta (Slavic name for a type of settlement that is between a classic early medieval Burg and a hillfort type settlement), of that number 35 could be linked to the Croats living in the region, though I am yet to find a convicing article that would explain on what material evidence that conclusion was made, as it currently stand I am inclined to suspect geographycal location was the main factor.

One of the reasons I am working on this timeline is because I was supposed to go on a six week excavation somewhere south of L'vov but due to some administrative burocratic whatnot at my univeristy the colaboration with the Ukranians got postponed till next summer.

Another interesting thing that also inspired me to work on this timeline is a diplomatic document dated 1243. that speaks about the movement of a group of Karaim Turks from Crimea to Halich/Galicia-Volhynia and dates it at the time of Danylo I Romanovych naming him "King of Croatia"!? Though today it is know that the document is actually from either late 17th or early 18th century it is mighty suspicious why would a local forgerer claim Danylo, a very well known king be king of Croatia, the only explanation is that in those parts such a statement would not be seen as suspicious or strange because otherwise the forgery would make no sense.


Cheers

It appears you know more than I do

Certainly Nestor and his successor were still aware of the "Croats" in the 12th c. as a tribe of the Slavs-that-became-Rus. It could have remained as a ceremonial title, or maybe the highlanders still claimed Croat descent.