Frankish British March

[Marko]

Reading a paper on Frankish influence in southern Britain got me thinking what would be the influence of the development of the Isle had the Franks established a march in the south of it and held to it for a century or two and what possible influence that could have on later events such as the Viking Age, etc...


Two PoD-s (in my mind) for why Franks decide to jump across the channel are:

PoD 1) Between 796 and 804 Charlemange launches an expedition to southern Britain because Merica fell to civil war after death of Offa with Ecgfrith and Coenwulf as the opposing forces. Franks come to support "their" claimiant (apparently Charl and Offa were on good terms prior to laters death) and he is succeful but in return turn Kent, Essex and Sussex in the Brithish/Saxon/Jutish/Anglish March centred on London and become power brokers on the Isle.

PoD 2) Charlemange dies during the pacification of Aquitaine in 769 and Carloman "inherits" all of the kingdom after fighting a civil war against the nobles supporting Pippin and his grandmother Bertrada (Carloman's mother). In the process of wining Carloman loses Aquitaine and Tasillo III strengthens his grip in the east. Lombards, Aquitans and Bavarians make a defensive alliance against the Franks so Carloman after a few blunders against the Saxons turns his eyes across the channel and launches an expedition against the weak southern members of the Heptarchy securing Kent, Essex and Sussex for the Frankish kingdom admisitrated from London. Kingdoms of Mercia and Franks becoming the two main competing powers on the Isle.



I am very interested in your opinions and possible scenarios.


Cheers

 

[Falastur]

By the way, it's Charlemagne not Charlemange. Charlemagne is Charles le Magne, i.e. Charles the Great. Charlemange is Charles le Mange i.e. Charles the Eat.

Re: scenario 2. I'd say not - generally if you're experiencing serious opposition at home the last thing you want to do is go on a really quite tricky foreign expedition. Attacking an independent state is always harder than quelling internal unrest and in this case the Channel constitutes a serious logistical hurdle to overcome. Also, what claim does Carloman have to England to try to conquer it. But more importantly, you don't want to turn your back on serious organised dissent or it just encourages them to chip away at your position back home, and if your expedition abroad turns into a debacle (and this is for a person who has just screwed up several attempts at pacifying his own country) then you're offering to hammer the last nails into your own coffin. You prove yourself to be incompetent, you will put off your own loyal supporters and it will actively encourage a rival to the crown or to your power to make a move.

Unsure about scenario 1. I'd suggest that offering the Franks a foothold in England is like offering a crocodile a leg knowing that if he bites it off he will continue to eat the rest of you but...I dunno, it might just be plausible.

 

[Marko]

By the way, it's Charlemagne not Charlemange. Charlemagne is Charles le Magne, i.e. Charles the Great. Charlemange is Charles le Mange i.e. Charles the Eat.

I knew something looked odd when I wrote that down

Unsure about scenario 1. I'd suggest that offering the Franks a foothold in England is like offering a crocodile a leg knowing that if he bites it off he will continue to eat the rest of you but...I dunno, it might just be plausible.

Considering how Frankish marches (apart from Britanny) were lost during the late 9th and early 10th century how likely would it be for Franks to keep a grip on southern Briania considering it so close to their heartlands even if it is across the sea?