Habsburgs don't inherit Spain: Greater Netherlands with Habsburg monarch in residence?

Greetings and salutations.

Been working on a Spainwank involving, among things, the Trastamara dynasty surviving. Habsburgs still get the Burgundian inheritance, and have that plus Austria, and maybe Bohemia depending on how things fall out in Hungary with the Ottomans later. Under the circumstances, the main royal residence is probably going to be in Low Countries, where most of the tax revenues are: sure, there's the problem of the French next door, but Austria has the Ottomans.

So, I'm wondering what this does to Protestantism in the Low Countries. With the monarch being locally based the Habsburgs are in a better position to rally local forces against Protestant rebels: on the other hand, they don't have Spanish armies or American silver. So, what seems more likely:

1. Habsburgs manage to suppress Protestantism or at least keep it the faith of a small enough minority that it's annoying but not an existential problem in the Burgundian Inheritance. Catholic united Netherlands, providing the Habsburgs with enough of a resource base at least hold onto the Holy Roman Emperor title, although nowhere near enough to suppress Protestantism in many parts of Germany.

2. Habsburgs try (and fail) to suppress a *Dutch revolt. This may well lead to a general collapse of Habsburg power in the Low Countries, since they'll be in poor shape to resist French claims on Flanders and elsewhere. Of course, even Trastamara Spain may support the Habsburgs, as a check to French power (since this theoretical Spain still includes southern Italy, they'll inevitable have some conflicts with France, aside from the simple fact France is the strongest power in Europe sans the mega-Habsburgs of OTL and therefore requires some balancing).

3. Habsburgs get on the Protestant train! Of course this may not work out very well: the Habsburgs are likely to want a *Lutheran or *Anglican Protestantism under their control, and Calvinists don't play that. [1] And the Habsburgs going protestant is going to give French aggression a lot of ideological cover.

Thoughts, brickbats?



[1]The idea has occasionally been floated of the German emperors taking control of the Protestant movement for their own purposes, creating a German *Lutheran Church, and gaining loads of expropriated Catholic Church lands to make into royal lands or with which to reward noble supporters. Due to the peculiarities of the protestant movement in the Netherlands, the Low Countries may be a rather poor place to inaugurate such a policy.
 
If the Habsburgs take up their primary residence in the Low Countries, they probably have a better feel for local sentiments in general and as far as "not having a revolt in the first place", that's potentially very helpful. But on the other hand, I think they're not really in a better position at fighting the revolt if they have one anyway, because the area they thought was a base is actually the source of their worst problems (not just those actively in arms).

Spain's help for the Habsburgs is likely to be vastly less than what Spain put into this OTL, even assuming "block France" is a major goal the Netherlands specifically probably aren't going to be "God will send us a miracle, so we don't need a realistic strategy or grasp of our financial limitations." as far as how much Castile is drained for this.

Not sure that necessarily means this is bad for the Habsburgs, but it's interesting to think about as far as the bigger picture.
 
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I feel like a surviving Trestamara dynasty should be allied with a surviving Lancaster/York dynasty. Both dynasties would have a shared interest in keeping France down along with the Habsburgs
 
Greetings and salutations.

Been working on a Spainwank involving, among things, the Trastamara dynasty surviving. Habsburgs still get the Burgundian inheritance, and have that plus Austria, and maybe Bohemia depending on how things fall out in Hungary with the Ottomans later. Under the circumstances, the main royal residence is probably going to be in Low Countries, where most of the tax revenues are: sure, there's the problem of the French next door, but Austria has the Ottomans.

So, I'm wondering what this does to Protestantism in the Low Countries. With the monarch being locally based the Habsburgs are in a better position to rally local forces against Protestant rebels: on the other hand, they don't have Spanish armies or American silver. So, what seems more likely:

1. Habsburgs manage to suppress Protestantism or at least keep it the faith of a small enough minority that it's annoying but not an existential problem in the Burgundian Inheritance. Catholic united Netherlands, providing the Habsburgs with enough of a resource base at least hold onto the Holy Roman Emperor title, although nowhere near enough to suppress Protestantism in many parts of Germany.

2. Habsburgs try (and fail) to suppress a *Dutch revolt. This may well lead to a general collapse of Habsburg power in the Low Countries, since they'll be in poor shape to resist French claims on Flanders and elsewhere. Of course, even Trastamara Spain may support the Habsburgs, as a check to French power (since this theoretical Spain still includes southern Italy, they'll inevitable have some conflicts with France, aside from the simple fact France is the strongest power in Europe sans the mega-Habsburgs of OTL and therefore requires some balancing).

3. Habsburgs get on the Protestant train! Of course this may not work out very well: the Habsburgs are likely to want a *Lutheran or *Anglican Protestantism under their control, and Calvinists don't play that. [1] And the Habsburgs going protestant is going to give French aggression a lot of ideological cover.

Thoughts, brickbats?



[1]The idea has occasionally been floated of the German emperors taking control of the Protestant movement for their own purposes, creating a German *Lutheran Church, and gaining loads of expropriated Catholic Church lands to make into royal lands or with which to reward noble supporters. Due to the peculiarities of the protestant movement in the Netherlands, the Low Countries may be a rather poor place to inaugurate such a policy.
I am not sure if this scenario necessarely would be a Spanish wank but IMO the most likely scenario (though by no mean the only plausible one, I could see butterflies getting to one or two) its either gonna be option or some kind of option 4: the Habsburgs uneasily tolerate Protestantism in their domain.

The argument for scenario 3 is fairly straightforward: Austria was fairly protestant until the Thirty Years War in OTL and so was, obviously, Bohemia. As for the Netherlands, the place had a long lasting tradition of not liking feudal authority so the OTL scenario where local liberties became associated with the new faith, due to being disliked by the same peoples, is really not hard to reproduce IMO... From there you only need one of the ITTL Hapsburg monarch, or even an ambitious relative, to read the writing on the wall, understand that without Spanish ressources backing them a confrontation won't end well for the House of Austria and swim with the tide rather then against it. Either before or after a conflict could work.

Scenario 4 would be similar but with a twist: you'd have an Habsburg monarchs that would be pragmatic, deft negociator but still attached to the old faith when the Reformation would happen. In such a scenario I could imagine cooler heads prevailing on both sides. Ironically it is at least possible Protestantism won't have nearly as much success in the Netherlands as in OTL, at least early on, as a more moderate Hapsburg government wouldn't allow it to be tied to fighting against an unpopular regime in the same manner it was in OTL.
 
And plus didn't they already ally up with the Tudors? I don't think a different dynasty in England will change anything
And butterflies may prevent Britain from going protestant, at least for a while.

(Catholic England and Protestant Habsburg Germany... hmmm.)
 
And butterflies may prevent Britain from going protestant, at least for a while.
England becoming Protestant wasn't inevitable by any means. The irony is that before Henry VIII, it was one of the most staunchly Catholic kingdoms in Europe, and the population remained majority-Catholic until around some point in Elizabeth I's reign. It was very much a 'top-down' religious imposition stemming from the King's Great Matter. Without the Great Matter (or an equivalent event) the English likely remain happy Catholics.

And since most of the Scots Protestant leaders were imports from England... Yeah, it's not hard to keep the British Isles Catholic.
 
If the Habsburgs take up their primary residence in the Low Countries, they probably have a better feel for local sentiments in general and as far as "not having a revolt in the first place", that's potentially very helpful. But on the other hand, I think they're not really in a better position
All the burgundian predecessors and Maximilian had to go through a learning process when it comes to their rule in the Netherlands. All faced several revolts(Bruges, Bruges, Bruges) that couldn't be easy supressed, because there often was a certain sympathy for the rebelions among the nobles and patricians, without whose help the revolt couldn't be supressed at all. In the meantime those nobles and patricians were constantly begging for an affirmation or even for new privileges for their continued support. In the beginning all those rulers were more using the stick than the carrot. But that stick wasn't verry effective, because at the same time, they really needed the money generated and couldn't therefore go in total destruction mode against revolting cities.
I would say residence is not only helpfull, it is necessary. It's the only way IMO to prevent spreading revolts. Trying to implement the reforms of the Council of Trent or a similar conversion program will need a local ruler with enough authority to get all in line, preferably without active persecution, because that stirred up also a lot of moderate nobles.
 
All the burgundian predecessors and Maximilian had to go through a learning process when it comes to their rule in the Netherlands. All faced several revolts(Bruges, Bruges, Bruges) that couldn't be easy supressed, because there often was a certain sympathy for the rebelions among the nobles and patricians, without whose help the revolt couldn't be supressed at all. In the meantime those nobles and patricians were constantly begging for an affirmation or even for new privileges for their continued support. In the beginning all those rulers were more using the stick than the carrot. But that stick wasn't verry effective, because at the same time, they really needed the money generated and couldn't therefore go in total destruction mode against revolting cities.
I would say residence is not only helpfull, it is necessary. It's the only way IMO to prevent spreading revolts. Trying to implement the reforms of the Council of Trent or a similar conversion program will need a local ruler with enough authority to get all in line, preferably without active persecution, because that stirred up also a lot of moderate nobles.

I'm not sure with that history it would be wholly viable even without such a program, to be honest. Austria isn't going to be able to support a force to enable the Habsburgs to go "I can ignore your disapproval and dislike of X.", and that's going to be obvious pretty quickly - at least a local ruler can win some points for being, well, a local ruler focused on local concerns if they have appealing enough carrots.
 
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England becoming Protestant wasn't inevitable by any means. The irony is that before Henry VIII, it was one of the most staunchly Catholic kingdoms in Europe, and the population remained majority-Catholic until around some point in Elizabeth I's reign. It was very much a 'top-down' religious imposition stemming from the King's Great Matter. Without the Great Matter (or an equivalent event) the English likely remain happy Catholics.

And since most of the Scots Protestant leaders were imports from England... Yeah, it's not hard to keep the British Isles Catholic.
To some extent this has potential for being a Catholic wank - Britain stays Catholic, the Low Countries stay (mostly) Catholic - but on the other hand, the Habsburgs are definitely going to be weaker against the Protestants in Germany, and it's going to be tough for them to hold onto Bohemia if they end up inheriting it from an Ottoman-overrun Hungary. Having the Ottomans banging on the gates of Vienna may keep the Austrians onboard, Protestant tendencies notwithstanding.

Pretty unlikely unless the Hapsburgs ever lose the Imperial Crown
If they lose Austria and the northern Netherlands, they may not be able to hold onto it anyway. The half a loaf of holding onto their territorial possessions and perhaps becoming the effective leaders of a "German" Church [1] may be better than none.

[1] Admittedly, there's still that Calvinist/Lutheran mutual hostility, which sometimes seemed more intractable than that between Protestants in general and Catholics.
 
If they lose Austria and the northern Netherlands, they may not be able to hold onto it anyway. The half a loaf of holding onto their territorial possessions and perhaps becoming the effective leaders of a "German" Church [1] may be better than none.
If that happens then aren't they essentially ruined? Like I don't see Bohemia deciding to stay with the Hapsburgs if they somehow managed to lose that badly here.
 
To some extent this has potential for being a Catholic wank - Britain stays Catholic, the Low Countries stay (mostly) Catholic - but on the other hand, the Habsburgs are definitely going to be weaker against the Protestants in Germany,
...Why? ITOL the Protestants could afford initiative a lot of the time because the Emperor was mostly away in France, Italy, Spain or the Mediterranean, ITTL he is going to be mostly in Germany and much more active on that front.
 
...Why? ITOL the Protestants could afford initiative a lot of the time because the Emperor was mostly away in France, Italy, Spain or the Mediterranean, ITTL he is going to be mostly in Germany and much more active on that front.
Well, OTL Charles had Ferdie in Austria past 1522 (and 1536 ruling Bohemia as well) to help keep an eye on German affairs for him. Plus, his ATL equivalent doesn't have American silver or Spanish troops, and is going to be busy dealing with Protestants at home as well, not something the Spanish Habsburgs had to worry about much.
 
If that happens then aren't they essentially ruined? Like I don't see Bohemia deciding to stay with the Hapsburgs if they somehow managed to lose that badly here.
I'm saying going protestant is a way to forestall this, not a way to recover after everything goes to shit. Of course, this requires a degree of foresight the OTL Habsburgs weren't particularly notable for.
 
I'm saying going protestant is a way to forestall this
But you literally just said "After" they lose Austria and the Netherlands......And how would this help them forestall it? Rulers looking to be overthrown are not likely to randomly swap religions for no reason. Plus half of the Austrian Netherlands was Catholic so it would just cause the opposite problem except this time they don't have the resources of Spain to help them put down the rebellion
 
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I think what would likely happen is a flip between the Low Countries and the Czech lands, where Bohemia finds itself in constant revolt against the Hapsburg overlords while the Netherlands go from a centre of reformation and rebellion to being staunchly catholic-- though you probably could cut that off before they both become irreligious-majority like OTL.
 
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