Nobunaga’s Ambition Realized: Dawn of a New Rising Sun

I could still see them forming but considering the small Spanish presence in California and small Russian presence in Alaska and Oregon, Japan taking over those places and depriving the USA from those areas would be a interesting idea to see play out.
This is a recurring thing in timelines I’ve noticed. ‘Deny the USA lands’

My reaction is almost always just bewilderment. Quite frankly the USA is not going to exist without a serious butterfly net, it’s not even a guarantee England will form the 13 colonies as we know them and you can be sure Japan is not going to colonise California before Spain does when it has far far more lands of far greater interest far closer to home.
 
Chapter 28: Survey of Daimyo in the Eras of Nobutada and Nobunori

Chapter 28: Survey of Daimyo in the Eras of Nobutada and Nobunori

Yoshioki’s control over national policy and patronage in Azuchi was felt by Japan’s various daimyo and their domains in different ways, although many were relatively unaffected in their capacity to govern their territories without intrusive intervention. Regardless, a trajectory towards greater prosperity and development generally continued well after the death of Oda Nobunaga in 1601.

Despite the 1587 Oda crackdown on Jesuit influence and wealth in response to the uncovering of the slave trade of native Japanese, Catholicism remained a significant force with northern Kyushu as its stronghold, patronized extensively by the the trio of the Otomo, Arima, and Omura clans. The same year, Otomo Yoshimune succeeded his father Sourin as the premier Kirishitan daimyo in Japan, although he lacked his father’s piety and dedication to the faith. As a result, while Yoshimune continued to patronize the Catholic Church and maintain firm relations with Portuguese and later also Spanish merchants, the axis of Catholic hegemony in Japan shifted to the Arima and Omura domains, where by 1600 the majority of the populace were Kirishitans. Arima Harunobu and his cousin Omura Yoshiaki not only enthusiastically supported the Catholic faith but also incorporated Jesuits, notably the former emissaries of the Tensho embassy, into their bureaucracies. The two clans also reaped a lot of the outflow of Nagasaki imports as Yoshiaki controlled the countryside immediately surrounding, and as a result nurtured active relationships with the Iberian merchants in the bustling port. Thus, the infamous Martyrdom of the 13 in 1617 was felt negatively economically and politically by the two clans, and they even fell under the deep suspicion of the notoriously anti-Catholic Saito Yoshiaki, although nothing would come from them.

On the flipside were Sakuma Morimasa and his younger brothers, who had been adopted by Shibata Katsuie and Sassa Narimasa as the two had no sons. Morimasa had been a lieutenant of the former in the Hokuriku army that had brought the Hokuriku region, including the former lands of the Uesugi clan, under Oda hegemony. He had been awarded lands in Kaga province (加賀国) before being awarded the domain of Daihouji Yoshioki (大宝寺義興) in 1587 after the latter died without a male heir through Katsuie’s influence. After the death of Maeda Toshiie in 1599, he inherited leadership of the Hokuriku group and was also close to Nagao Kagehiro (長尾景広) and Shibata Harutoki (新発田治時) in Echigo province.​

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Portrait of Sakuma Morimasa​

Using his political influence upon his appointment to the Sangi-shu, Morimasa successfully pushed for the construction of the Hokurikudo, which would in the long run economically integrate the Hokuriku region with central and western Japan, and would especially benefit his and his brothers’ lands. Through his eventual affinity with the yoriai-shu and Saito Yoshioki, he was able to steer policies and patronage in his clan’s favor whenever he could, making the Sakuma clan among the most powerful vassals of Azuchi. Internally, the coastal town of Sakata (酒田) was developed to become a major port on trade routes going from Ezo to Shimonoseki. In the 1610s, Sakata even became host to a small newfound trade, mainly for furs, with the coast of Enkaishu (沿海州) [1]. Morimasa’s achievements, despite his forced political retirement with the fall of Yoshioki’s regime in 1619, remained unaffected and would be protected and expanded upon by his son Moriyuki (佐久間盛行).

In the middle, politically and physically, was western Kii province, controlled by Nagaoka Tadaoki. As a natural heir to the old Ashikaga legacy upon lands previously governed by the Hatakeyama clan, Tadaoki and his father Fujitaka welcomed former shogunal vassals and surviving members of cadet families of the Ashikaga clan into their service and established a robust administration. The city of Wakayama (和歌山) became a booming center under Tadaoki with a Kyoto-style high culture developing under the influence of ex-Ashikaga retainers, and thus a remnant of the Ashikaga shogunal legacy would establish a new homeland.​

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Portrait of Nagaoka Tadaoki
Finally, the Kanto region saw immense economic growth as well as increased autonomy from Azuchi. Benefiting greatly from the development of the Tokaido, Nakasendo, and even the Hokuriku roads, several towns emerged as important urban centers, including Maebashi (前橋) in Kozuke province, Musashino (武蔵野) in Musashi province, and Utsunomiya (宇都宮) in Shimotsuke province. The latter also acted as economic links to the Oshu region, with Utsunomiya’s growth also aided by Kamakura tandai Oda Toshimasa’s Oshu-kaido project (奥州街道) linking Kamakura to the far north with Utsunomiya in between. Odawara also continued to grow as the region’s second biggest port and the center of Hojo power. Economic integration together with the end of warfare in the Kanto region also led to an increase in agricultural output in the vast Kanto plain (関東平野).

These developments came amidst the times of Saito Yoshioki and Azuchi’s tendency to impact political and commercial affairs in western and central Japan disproportionately due to a focus on increasing trade relations with the outside world, leading to the greater independence of Kamakura from Azuchi and a repeat of previous relationships between the Kinki and Kanto regions from the Kamakura and Muromachi shogunate. Under Toshimasa, the Kamakura-fu’s administration grew more complex much like the Daijo-fu’s did, and it even developed its own navy. The dissipation of factionalism after 1615 helped increase Kanto autonomy as well, shaping national affairs for years to come.​

[1]: Enkaishu is the modern day Primorsky Krai.
 
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Internally, the coastal town of Sakata (酒田) was developed to become a major port on trade routes going from Ezo to Shimonoseki. In the 1610s, Sakata even became host to a small newfound trade, mainly for furs, with the coast of Enkaishu (沿海州) [1].

[1]: Enkaishu is the modern day Primorsky Krai.
Does that imply a Japanese Transamur?
 
These developments came amidst the times of Saito Yoshioki and Azuchi’s tendency to impact political and commercial affairs in western and central Japan disproportionately due to a focus on increasing trade relations with the outside world, leading to the greater independence of Kamakura from Azuchi and a repeat of previous relationships between the Kinki and Kanto regions from the Kamakura and Muromachi shogunate. Under Toshimasa, the Kamakura-fu’s administration grew more complex much like the Daijo-fu’s did, and it even developed its own navy. The dissipation of factionalism after 1615 helped increase Kanto autonomy as well, shaping national affairs for years to come.
laughs nervously

If Japan really wants to modernise as a centralised state, then they're ought to move its Imperial and administrative capitals to Kantō Plain.
 
Question - why? The heart of Yamato is located in the Kansai region.
There's a reason why the Tokugawa moved to Kanto, it's just prime real estate, it faces the Pacific Ocean so it's better for trade and naval purposes too. As we can see with power residing in Azuchi, Kanto is becoming a rival, while if Kanto was the capital region, Azuchi could not contest it.
 
Question - why? The heart of Yamato is located in the Kansai region.
There's a reason why the Tokugawa moved to Kanto, it's just prime real estate, it faces the Pacific Ocean so it's better for trade and naval purposes too. As we can see with power residing in Azuchi, Kanto is becoming a rival, while if Kanto was the capital region, Azuchi could not contest it.
And then, the issue of a disproportionately powerful Kanto Kanrei is just being repeated over and over again. Even before the post was established, the issue of the country being bifurcated between the East and West had already been a dilemma since the days of the Kamakura Shogunate and Hojo Regency, and one that the Ashikaga Shogunate had failed to put at rest.

Kyoto can be a good base to exert better control as the common terminus of Honshu's major roads, but it just doesn't compare to the potential economic strength that a consolidated Kantō plain can provide especially once Japan becomes a commercial and imperialist power. Unifying that region with the Imperial Throne and the actual administration will remove a large part of the clan factionalism that has plagued the country since time immemorial.
 
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And then, the issue of a disproportionately powerful Kanto Kanrei is just being repeated over and over again. Even before the post was established, the issue of the country being bifurcated between the East and West had already been a dilemma since the days of the Kamakura Shogunate and Hojo Regency, and one that the Ashikaga Shogunate had failed to put at rest.

Kyoto can be a good base to exert better control as the common terminus of Honshu's major roads, but it just doesn't compare to the potential economic strength that a consolidated Kantō plain can provide especially once Japan becomes a commercial and imperialist power. Unifying that region with the Imperial Throne and the actual administration will remove a large part of the clan factionalism that has plagued the country since time immemorial.
Yep, I agree. Tokyo is capital of Japan instead of Kyoto for a very good reason.
 
Would it be possible for the Emperor to reside in Kyoto for historic and cultural reasons while the actual governance is done in Edo/Tokyo? Basically having a royal capital and a governmental capital?
 
Would it be possible for the Emperor to reside in Kyoto for historic and cultural reasons while the actual governance is done in Edo/Tokyo? Basically having a royal capital and a governmental capital?
I mean that is basically what has always happened. The Emperor was always in Kyoto throughout every shogunate, including the Tokugawa. Meiji was the first Emperor to relocate to Edo and that was because of the Restoration that made the Emperor the actual power once more.
 
Would it be possible for the Emperor to reside in Kyoto for historic and cultural reasons while the actual governance is done in Edo/Tokyo? Basically having a royal capital and a governmental capital?
I mean that is basically what has always happened. The Emperor was always in Kyoto throughout every shogunate, including the Tokugawa. Meiji was the first Emperor to relocate to Edo and that was because of the Restoration that made the Emperor the actual power once more.
It has been the case since Kamakura was first chosen and established as the Shogunate capital, and persisted even though the Ashikaga established the Shogunate's capital at Kyoto thanks to the powerful Kanto Kanrei. Unifying the Chrysanthemum throne with the actual centre of economic and political gravity at Edo served to further the notion that the Emperor himself, in fact, now dominates the country for real.

Why has it been the case? Well, the bifurcated governments between Kyoto and Kanto plain resulted in much intrigue and byzantine bureaucracy that gave rise to the offices like the Rokuhara Tandai and the Kanto Kanrei. The Kamakura and Ashikaga shogunates struggled to control the organs that are just plain out of reach from their own clan armies, which are the imperial court and West Japan for the former, and Kanto Plain for the latter (not that alone, but especially that).
 
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It has been the case since Kamakura was first chosen and established as the Shogunate capital, and persisted even though the Ashikaga established the Shogunate's capital at Kyoto thanks to the powerful Kanto Kanrei. Unifying the Chrysanthemum throne with the actual centre of economic and political gravity at Edo served to further the notion that the Emperor himself, in fact, now dominates the country for real.

Why has it been the case? Well, the bifurcated governments between Kyoto and Kanto plain resulted in much intrigue and byzantine bureaucracy that gave rise to the offices like the Rokuhara Tandai and the Kanto Kanrei. The Kamakura and Ashikaga shogunates struggled to control the organs that are just plain out of reach from their own clan armies, which is the imperial court and West Japan for the former and Kanto Plain for the latter.
Yeah. Imperial Japan was the first proper centralised state in Japan due to the concentration of power in Tokyo.

Even the Tokugawa had to use their Sankin-kotai system to truly control Japan. The Meiji Restoration and later the crushing of the Sat-Cho rebellion crushed the nobility, relocated the Emperor to Tokyo, and concentrated power in Kanto.
 
This is a recurring thing in timelines I’ve noticed. ‘Deny the USA lands’

My reaction is almost always just bewilderment. Quite frankly the USA is not going to exist without a serious butterfly net, it’s not even a guarantee England will form the 13 colonies as we know them and you can be sure Japan is not going to colonise California before Spain does when it has far far more lands of far greater interest far closer to home.
The problem with both these assumptions is why would they happen when the pod and place of divergence is oceans away.

I don't see Japan ruled by the Nobunagas and more open to the world will somehow affect the English colonizing Eastern North America or get the beic in India for example. Or how Japan being open will somehow magically solve Spain's administrative and financial problems.
 
I don't see Japan ruled by the Nobunagas and more open to the world will somehow affect the English colonizing Eastern North America or get the beic in India for example. Or how Japan being open will somehow magically solve Spain's administrative and financial problems.
Changes in shipping schedules, trade volumes, and reactions to such economic, political, and social developments are enough to warrant the butterfly effect. Of course, there are still the "broad strokes" like the one you've said, but overall, those small changes will snowball over time.

That said, there's also the rule of cool in play. For one, it's just much more interesting to have Ben Franklin react to Japan's political development.
 
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Hello,

From the 1610s onward, are there changes taking place in Japanese society as a result of slightly greater interaction with Europe?

From fashion…
(This actually started in the 1850s OTL)
Do some articles clothing from Europe be an improvement over some Japanese clothing?

To jewelry…

To firearms
 
Changes in shipping schedules, trade volumes, and reactions to such political developments are enough to warrant the butterfly effect. Of course, there are still the "broad strokes" like the one you've said, but overall, those small changes will snowball over time.

That said, there's also rule of cool in play. For one, it's just much more interesting to have Ben Franklin react to Japan's political development.
Tbf I don't think trading volumes would help with Spain's financial problems due to being able to extract insane amounts of silver and gold from the Americas to have the Spanish colonise California tbf. And considering where England is I don't see how they'd not colonise NA same as France considering its already the 17th century ittl. Just idk who'd colonise California ittl since by that time things would've changed a lot.
Does that imply a Japanese Transamur?
Would be cool if Japan holds the transamur for a while but tbf it'd be definitely just trade ties to the Jurchens first and foremost.
From the 1610s onward, are there changes taking place in Japanese society as a result of slightly greater interaction with Europe?
Stuff like skirts and belts being worn with kimono for ease of use would be widespread considering how much time it saves wearing everything. I could see western style sword guards being put on Japanese swords too as per otl as kyu guntos while the sword length would decrease more and more due to swords being used in the melee more often than not.
To firearms
Tbf I think if the Japanese are competing with the Europeans their inventions (especially military ones) would quickly spread to Japan as various Japanese ppl would also live in Europe to learn about the west in general like how Japanese went to China to learn their various inventions.
 
The problem with both these assumptions is why would they happen when the pod and place of divergence is oceans away.

I don't see Japan ruled by the Nobunagas and more open to the world will somehow affect the English colonizing Eastern North America or get the beic in India for example. Or how Japan being open will somehow magically solve Spain's administrative and financial problems.
The butterfly effect. So much of history was decided by random chance, weather patterns that could have changed on a dime because so and so burned too much wood that day, some guy just being hit by a stray arrow or drinking bad water, this sperm cell winning over that sperm cell, this colony surviving but not that colony, etc.

Frankly while broad strokes can remain the same, predicting a USA as we know it will ever exist is frankly impossible without a butterfly net of preposterous scale. To begin with every single liberal treatise such as Locke, Descartes, Voltaire etc that influenced the US’s existence does not itself exist yet because the POD predates the fricking Enlightenment.

Also no Japan being open won’t magically fix Spain’s issues but I similarly fail to see how it will magically give Japan the ability and desire to colonise and lay claim to California before Spain.

I can see Japanese Alaska and British Columbia tho, following from the Kurils, Aleutians, and Kamchatka.
 
Do some articles clothing from Europe be an improvement over some Japanese clothing?
The Japanese can use such articles of clothing for their overseas Red Seal trade; they'll use traditional court clothing otherwise, let alone their archery exhibitions.
Tbf I don't think trading volumes would help with Spain's financial problems due to being able to extract insane amounts of silver and gold from the Americas to have the Spanish colonise California tbf. And considering where England is I don't see how they'd not colonise NA same as France considering its already the 17th century ittl. Just idk who'd colonise California ittl since by that time things would've changed a lot.
What I mean is that the different choices of the random merchants and friars alone will make for a butterfly effect that makes a difference in the "specific details" of this timeline. Think about its effects on the appointments in the bureaucracy of the different European governments.

I think Tertius711 have explained this concept much more effectively:
The butterfly effect. So much of history was decided by random chance, weather patterns that could have changed on a dime because so and so burned too much wood that day, some guy just being hit by a stray arrow or drinking bad water, this sperm cell winning over that sperm cell, this colony surviving but not that colony, etc.

Frankly while broad strokes can remain the same, predicting a USA as we know it will ever exist is frankly impossible without a butterfly net of preposterous scale. To begin with every single liberal treatise such as Locke, Descartes, Voltaire etc that influenced the US’s existence does not itself exist yet because the POD predates the fricking Enlightenment.

Also no Japan being open won’t magically fix Spain’s issues but I similarly fail to see how it will magically give Japan the ability and desire to colonise and lay claim to California before Spain.

I can see Japanese Alaska and British Columbia tho, following from the Kurils, Aleutians, and Kamchatka.
 
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