It doesn't even need to be a cultural backlash, as it can be borne from a succession crisis or other political disputes.
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Nobunaga’s Ambition Realized: Dawn of a New Rising Sun
- Thread starter Ambassador Huntsman
- Start date
It's more that it'd be a succession crisis/political crisis often sees ppl being radicalised, so the conservatives and the westernisers being more and more isolated from each other makes a lot of sense.
It honestly pisses me off that I continue to not receive notifications for this thread. I don't understand why and I keep missing chapters.
i miss some too, i wonder if there is a problem with watching too many threads at once? I check the “watched threads” page now once a day just to be sure I don’t miss anything again.
There won't really be a straight conservative vs. westernizer political split because at this point, only a handful of court noble families and Shinto-Buddhist institutions oppose the incorporation of Western-developed technologies into Japanese society (everyone likes guns and money at the end of the day), and Japan beating Spain gives the realm so much political and economic prestige that nearly all political stakeholders see the benefit of being engaged with the outside world extensively. There will, however, be political differences over the gradual centralization of Japan owing to the fact that modernization leads to degrees of defeudalization. For example, merchants don't possess any direct political power but were key in ending the war over the opinions of war hawks in the government. Religion won't be a divisive issue for a while as even though Christianity survives in Calvinism and the Church of Yamato, the suppression and ban of Catholicism has severely weakened the overall faith and satisfies any inkling of dissatisfaction from traditionalists.
Ultimately, though, Oda Nobutomo possesses more political authority and legitimacy than any of his predecessors including Nobunaga due to victory over Spain, his own political acumen, and the longevity of Oda rule so that's really want counts currently.
Same. @Issei Uzumaki @YankeeCharlemagne I generally post a chapter every 5 days if you wanna keep track.
Ah it makes sense. I meant it as a 'conservative Vs progressive' kinda thing which works with the other Japanese rulers centralising power in azuchi while ezo continues to become more powerful as the economy of Japan grows.
Nobutomo seems like someone who'd continue to westernise Japan tho, and I'd like to see how the Japanese react to companies in general.
Chapter 50: Governance of Japanese Overseas Provinces in the 1630s
Chapter 50: Governance of Japanese Overseas Provinces in the 1630s
After the Treaty of Gapan, Kanbe Tomoyoshi was appointed the governor of the new Japanese province of Luson (Ruson-no-kuni//呂宋国) by his older brother. Following in his late uncle’s footsteps in his dealing with Bireitou’s indigenous peoples, he proceeded to offer vassal status to the mountain tribes that had allied with Japan during the war and permitted religious freedom excluding the Catholic faith. This last detail was largely irrelevant as the mountain tribes had either never converted to Catholicism or were forcibly converted and therefore happy to throw off the faith. The ban on Catholicism, however, did cause issues in the newly acquired lowlands, especially in the former Spanish province of Pangasinan, where many natives were devout Catholics and harbored sympathies towards the Spanish Crown. As a result, Tomoyoshi dealt with small-scale revolts in the lowlands and suppressed the Catholic faith throughout 1634. The suppressions along with the logistics of controlling the new lands led to a large portion of Japanese forces staying in the new province through the year, with an army of 10,000 maintained beyond 1634 alongside levies from vassalized tribes and subjugated lowlands. Many of these remaining samurai formed the core of Luson’s new feudal structure, ruling over the natives in the lowlands. Mōri Mototomo (毛利元倶), a grandson of the legendary Mōri Motonari (毛利元就), and Tsuda Masazumi (津田昌澄), head of the Oda cadet branch descended from the infamous Oda Nobuyuki, were among the new prominent samurai lords in Luson province.
Unlike what occurred in Bireitou in its beginning stages as a Japanese possession, Luson saw an immediate influx of samurai households, laborers, and settlers into the province within the decade. The swift establishment of a sizeable Japanese presence in Luson, especially in the upper rungs of the new social structure and in the new provincial capital of Awari (鮑里, Aparri renamed), initially created a clear divide between the Japanese and the natives, particularly in the lowlands. However, like those who succumbed before them, the new rulers of northern Luzon displayed vulnerability to the tropical climate and diseases. Thus, after a while, many lower-ranking samurai began to seek wives among the indigenous population, often de-Christianized ones. Nevertheless, the interethnic relations that developed on Bireitou never truly manifested in Luson province. Additionally, Catholicism persisted as a marginalized but inextinguishable faith, efforts by the Church of Yamato to integrate them into their fold largely unsuccessful despite their fervor and determination. As a result, the maintenance of Japanese presence on the island proved to be costly, especially in the early years as the conquered lands recovered from wartime devastation and the home islands became mired in its own affairs.
Back in Bireitou, upon the passing of Tadataka, the island was split into two provinces: Bireigo in the south (美麗後) and Bireizen (美麗前) in the north. Tadataka’s senior heir Oda Tadahide was given control of Bireizen while his junior heir Norishige became the governor of Bireigo, with the vassal Kingdom of Tatuturo sandwiched between the two provinces. These developments did not affect the governance of the coastal Shimazu holdings in northeastern Bireitou, which continued to be governed directly by Shimazu Norihisa. Throughout northern and central Bireitou, minor samurai clans of mixed Japanese, Bireitoan, and in some cases Chinese descent began to emerge, and while the top positions of power were occupied by members of prominent samurai clans from the home islands, native tribal leaders began to become more integrated into the feudal structure. Towards the south, particularly in the areas previously in the Spanish sphere of influence, the situation mirrored that of Luson more closely due to the similar circumstances under which the lands came under Japanese control, although Zheng Zhilong’s landholdings in the south as well as his wealth and influence as the newly appointed commander of the Iriebashi naval squadron ensured Chinese power in Bireigo. Despite Japanese claims over the entire island, however, the tribes in the mountainous interior remained relatively independent of Japanese authority and it would be a while before the entire island would come under de facto Japanese control, although these tribes nevertheless felt the impact of Japanese commercial activity and settlement.
Unlike what occurred in Bireitou in its beginning stages as a Japanese possession, Luson saw an immediate influx of samurai households, laborers, and settlers into the province within the decade. The swift establishment of a sizeable Japanese presence in Luson, especially in the upper rungs of the new social structure and in the new provincial capital of Awari (鮑里, Aparri renamed), initially created a clear divide between the Japanese and the natives, particularly in the lowlands. However, like those who succumbed before them, the new rulers of northern Luzon displayed vulnerability to the tropical climate and diseases. Thus, after a while, many lower-ranking samurai began to seek wives among the indigenous population, often de-Christianized ones. Nevertheless, the interethnic relations that developed on Bireitou never truly manifested in Luson province. Additionally, Catholicism persisted as a marginalized but inextinguishable faith, efforts by the Church of Yamato to integrate them into their fold largely unsuccessful despite their fervor and determination. As a result, the maintenance of Japanese presence on the island proved to be costly, especially in the early years as the conquered lands recovered from wartime devastation and the home islands became mired in its own affairs.
Back in Bireitou, upon the passing of Tadataka, the island was split into two provinces: Bireigo in the south (美麗後) and Bireizen (美麗前) in the north. Tadataka’s senior heir Oda Tadahide was given control of Bireizen while his junior heir Norishige became the governor of Bireigo, with the vassal Kingdom of Tatuturo sandwiched between the two provinces. These developments did not affect the governance of the coastal Shimazu holdings in northeastern Bireitou, which continued to be governed directly by Shimazu Norihisa. Throughout northern and central Bireitou, minor samurai clans of mixed Japanese, Bireitoan, and in some cases Chinese descent began to emerge, and while the top positions of power were occupied by members of prominent samurai clans from the home islands, native tribal leaders began to become more integrated into the feudal structure. Towards the south, particularly in the areas previously in the Spanish sphere of influence, the situation mirrored that of Luson more closely due to the similar circumstances under which the lands came under Japanese control, although Zheng Zhilong’s landholdings in the south as well as his wealth and influence as the newly appointed commander of the Iriebashi naval squadron ensured Chinese power in Bireigo. Despite Japanese claims over the entire island, however, the tribes in the mountainous interior remained relatively independent of Japanese authority and it would be a while before the entire island would come under de facto Japanese control, although these tribes nevertheless felt the impact of Japanese commercial activity and settlement.
Portraits of Oda Tadahide and Norishige (left to right)
Although not affected by the events of the war, the governance of Ezo began to display parallels to those seen in Bireitou and Luson. Despite being located in the remote north, the strategic location of the Hakodate navy and growing demand for Ainu products and furs made the island important to Azuchi and desirable for those looking to start a new path, though Ezo did not attract as many newcomers from Honshu as Bireitou did. What ultimately drove the expansion of Japanese influence and territorial expanse was the Kakizaki clan. Both Suehiro and Yoshihiro sired many sons, and some of them were encouraged by both Yoshihiro and Kinhiro to cleave out a domain for themselves and their entourages from the unincorporated valleys and forests in Ezo, particularly on the Ishikari Plain (石狩平野). This incentive, further spurred by a brief lack of oversight during the tyranny of Inspector-General Saito Yoshioki, led to control over all of Ezo west of the Ishikari Plains by the 1630s, the region made up of Ainu vassals and direct Kakizaki territories. Japanese cultural and economic influence, meanwhile, disseminated throughout all of Ezo, with the Isikar-un-kur and Sum-un-kur groups particularly affected by the Japanese presence. It was around this time that the entirety of Ezo would be sailed around successfully, with the Chishima Islands even discovered in 1623.
Map of Ezo in the 1630s, salmon=Kakizaki clan and Ainu vassals
Treatment of Ainu vassals by Japan was noticeably less accommodating and forgiving compared to the situation on Bireitou due to pervading attitudes of the former’s barbaric and primitive nature, although these sentiments did not affect trade and other commercial interactions or the autonomy of the Ainu vassal chieftains and villages. These prejudices would be challenged, however, by their emergence as a formidable foe in the Iberian-Japanese War. Atuy Upash, a high ranking naval officer in the Hakodate squadron of the Azuchi navy, was unusually taken in by the late Oda Nobunaga after the two first met during the latter’s circumnavigation of his realm and was subsequently able to prove his talent. He recruited and personally commanded a special unit of Ainu sailors, nicknamed the “Ainu Three Hundred” for their famous “interactions” with the Spanish during the many naval battles during the war. Thereafter, the Ainu, who were referred by the Spanish as the “Norsemen of Zipangu” for their ferocious combat when boarding enemy ships, would raise their peoples’ profile as potentially promising mercenaries and gain some respect from the Japanese.
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Thank you!!Just caught up, I really love the TL here, looking forward to more.
That last section on Ainu-Japanese relations raises some hope that some they might eventually be incorporated into the Daimyo structure instead of being suppressed culturally, should mere loose vassalage and mercenary contracts prove insufficient in the eyes of Azuchi.
As always, great stuff, Huntsman!
As always, great stuff, Huntsman!
Is Buddhist missionaries trying to convert Dechristian tribes? Also is there a reason why Christianity able to maintain itself?
I’m puzzled by that too. By this stage, the conversion should be only skin deep I’d have thought…
This update is quite fun, especially as the different groups of people that are under Japanese rule would be. The dynamics between the different groups of ppl and the Japanese would be very cool and interesting. I do think we could see Africans and Indians in Birietou too which would be interesting, and the tribes of the mountains are quite interesting too. The Ainu also seem to be getting a better deal than otl due to mercenary jobs (and other jobs such as more unsavory jobs like piracy/gangs) would be available. I could see a few ainu descended nobles too if they're noble to the Japanese. Also, considering the Ainu are trading with the Japanese I could see various goods being shipped out which would be good for the Ainu and Japanese in general. The fur trade is destined to be an important part of japan after all...
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John Fredrick Parker
Donor
First off, I’ve been following this TL for a time now, and been enjoying it.
I just re-read the two updates concerning the Thirty Years War; from what I can tell so far, the big changes to OTL seem to be that the Hapsburgs doing slightly better in 1632 leads to two big changes in the short term that are bad for them -- first, that Gustavus Adolphus meant die at Lutzen; second that France enters the war two years earlier.
So far, we’re only seeing the short term effects (not good for the Hapsburgs), but I’m now really curious to see how this changes the course of the war overall. I don’t suppose anyone has any predictions?
I just re-read the two updates concerning the Thirty Years War; from what I can tell so far, the big changes to OTL seem to be that the Hapsburgs doing slightly better in 1632 leads to two big changes in the short term that are bad for them -- first, that Gustavus Adolphus meant die at Lutzen; second that France enters the war two years earlier.
So far, we’re only seeing the short term effects (not good for the Hapsburgs), but I’m now really curious to see how this changes the course of the war overall. I don’t suppose anyone has any predictions?
Most of Germany will be Protestant, or if not a hell of a lot more of it along with *possibly, maybe* Bohemia, Spain will have a hard struggle ahead to keep Iberia under one unified government and gets booted out of the Netherlands a few years earlier, and Sweden's Good Times may last a great deal longer. Maybe a bigger slice of Pomeranian pie? They'll be getting more somewhere, that's for certain, and that greater Swedish potency bodes somewhat more ill for Poland later on, which did not have a great time in the mid 17th Century...
Whether seeing both retrenchment in Europe vs the powers of France and a Protestant coalition arranged against both Austria and themselves and a dynamic, vibrant polity in East Asia that is not content, relatively isolationist China willing and capable of challenging European powers and besting them will convince Madrid that radical reform is necessary is anyone's guess. I don't know how the Portuguese Independence war ends, but right now odds are good on such a revolt.
Whether seeing both retrenchment in Europe vs the powers of France and a Protestant coalition arranged against both Austria and themselves and a dynamic, vibrant polity in East Asia that is not content, relatively isolationist China willing and capable of challenging European powers and besting them will convince Madrid that radical reform is necessary is anyone's guess. I don't know how the Portuguese Independence war ends, but right now odds are good on such a revolt.
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Not really, Japanese Buddhist temples will sprout up in Luson but mostly for the Japanese immigrants. Some natives may choose to convert but the policy of religious tolerance means there won't be any involvement by Azuchi to spread any religion so Catholicized natives may either go back to traditional animist faiths, join the Church of Yamato, or turn to Islam.
Natives in Pangasinan are thoroughly Catholicized and the Cagayan lowlands are moderately so by this time. Most of the Catholic resistance is in Pangasinan, and also Japan has to clean out the Catholic archdioceses and even lurking Jesuits and Franciscans out of the new lands.
Thank you!!
There aren't stuff about the Ilocanos, then known as Samtoy? I guess that they would be lumped together alongside the highland natives, what with the Catholic Churches closed down. That said, they were found distinctive and eventually integrated nonetheless due to their inhabiting of the much-more accessible lowlands, and it would not be much more different with Japanese rule either. Their Purok and Ili system being largely analogous to the Barangay system of Southern Luzon – if having vast swathes of it still being independent from the Spanish colonial framework of gobernadorcillos at this point IOTL – only served to bolster that distinction.
That said, at least some of them can be much more amenable to the Japanese Church as an alternative to the Catholic faith, as they – while they may not be too fond of its Spanish character alongside the Augustinian order that spearheaded it in their particular region – can find some of its principles nevertheless understandable.
However, the Ifugao gold trade that drove the Spanish to rush in establishing entire towns on the region will also drive many Japanese to settle those same regions. Whether that population will take an urban character, or seek to claim land that they can work for themselves is a question that can result to much acrimony, what with its potential to displace natives who have already accustomed themselves with the encomienda economy.
Considering that Luzon is lumped together into a single, gigantic province, I do pity the constable that will be sent to manage Vigan. Balancing the immigrants' interests with the natives' and researching the entire economy's context around the encomienda system present will sure be a headache. It's not like Pangasinan where they can just whack the problem out and declare it as the resolution, after all.
Besides, Miyoshi Yasutaka's army – who have marched through their regions – must have made contact with those same towns and communities. Did they have their own supplies, or did they live off the land? Considering that Spanish influence still had to reach the region's northern ends, the locals will certainly not be too fond of that army doing the latter.
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