"Now Blooms the Tudor Rose."

[Space Oddity]

And now, the first installment of Space Oddity's answer corner!

Finally actually got round to reading it and congrats. Very little filler in there and a hell of a lot of action. A few things leap out at me, number one is what sort of King is Henry IX. I get that he quite smart and looks the part especially as he has a regal Queen on his arm but how good is he at doing the tedious work of running a Renaissance Monarchy. As the Hanoverians learned adjudicating about which Sussex village has the rights to a weekly market is dull but if you don't do it then someone else will and soon power will gravitate to them.

Henry has policy wonks on the Privy Council for that. Which would sound like what you're talking about, except these people are a small, select group that Henry has a lot of personal control over, which brings me to your next question...

Equally you mentioned that Henry IX is still using the Consilar Edict so he's clearly in a much stronger position than Mary or Elizabeth was but just how absolute can he be?

Henry is probably as absolute a monarch as any you'll find in Europe. There are customs and norms he is expected to abide by, which he generally does, but in the end, there's little doubt that the King controls the government. True, there's Parliament, but they cause Henry no more difficulties than the Cortes cause Philip, and rather less than the Estates-General and the various French Parlements cause Henri. (And I'm leaving the Reichstag right out, as that's a whole other ballgame.)

As for Ireland it's difficult to gauge just what the territorial situation on the ground is, what percentages of Ireland answers to the Originalists, the English and the non-Originalists Irish Lords?

I don't think anyone ITTL could answer that with any more confidence than I could I'm afraid. Roughly speaking, England controls a thin line of territory in the south that hugs the coast, centered on the city of Cork, the Catholic Lords hold territory in the Southwest, and the Originalists hold the north, and large chunks of the middle. Everything else is a crazy no-man's land of shifting loyalties and bloody chaos, where the Originalists and the English each try to top each other for atrocities.

Finally how are Spain's finances looking. Like France they've gone bankrupt recently but unlike France who've had a bit of peace to restore some health the Spanish are having to prop up their Austrian relations, on the other hand the Spanish have Potosi.

Not so good--on the one hand, Philip is a hell of a lot better than paying his debts than Henri II. On other, he has been racking up new ones of late. A second bankruptcy is probably going to occur in a little while.

Then I shall try again; Magnus, as opposed to OTL, is rather competent (and frightening and insane, but competent). If Erik's succession or conflict with the nobles goes to hell, or if Denmark succeeds, or any number of things befall Sweden, I could see a capable son of Magnus, based out of a secure Livonia-Estonia-whatever, plunging into a War of Swedish Succession and becoming "the salvation of Sweden".

Either that, or its really well obfuscated like most of your clues.

Hmmm... that would fit the "child of greatness" hint wouldn't it?

 

[St. Just]

And, not to mention, Magnus is Latin for "the great". Of course, this is all conjecture, but fun conjecture nonetheless.

 

[Space Oddity]

Out of curiosity, how long were some of the OTL peace treaties of this era? Just to give us an impression of just how long 800 pages really is.

Significantly shorter. To be fair, the "treaty" is in fact a mass of treaties, covering a huge number of legal matters, many of them rather minor.

So everyone is depicted as bad, it's just that some are even worse than others? How familiar.

It's a popular stance. And remember, for Strasbourg this should be about protecting the Reformed Church, not aggrandizing any one noble, even if he is, say, an Elector of a prominent family who backs said church...

I know that Elizabeth is a foreigner to them, but I wonder if their opinions will continue to be shaped by the mounting religious disputes across the Channel. Libertines vs. Puritans seems at least loosely analogous to True vs. Reformed Lutherans.

More than loosely--in both case it's Evangelical vs. Reformed Church. Though I will add that Libertines are somewhat to the left of True Lutherans, religiously speaking, and Puritans likewise are generally a bit more purely Calvinistic than Reformed Lutherans.

Poor Westminster Palace, meeting its ultimate fate some 270 years ahead of schedule. Here's hoping that, if they do indeed rebuild it, they'll cut back on flammable materials.

Oh, it hasn't burned down--just suffered some fire damage. Incidentally this is the second fire the palace has gone through this century ITTL--there was an earlier fire in 1512.

The Great Pretender? Now, granted, he's effectively the only pretender at this point, certainly the only one with a court-in-exile and retainers, but that strikes me as far too generous of Henry IX, unless he's being sarcastic.

Part of this is due to the EXTENT of Lennox's claims--he is a pretender to not one, but two--or if you want to count Ireland, three--thrones.

And another part of it is, Henry is just a little paranoid about these things.

Not to mention that having Lennox on their side probably isn't a good sign for the Irish Catholics.

Something they agreed with you on.

Poor John Darcy.

Yes, yes, smuggling and privateering is all well and good - but what does this mean for the English colonies?!

Very little. England didn't really become a player in the colonial game until roughly fifty years from the present date ITTL. Drake and Hawkins' interest in the New World was always pretty much the afore-mentioned smuggling and privateering.

A shame about Pius IV. He was elected with such promise and hope for the future, and yet his Papacy will probably go down as an ignominious failure.

I wouldn't go THAT far--he's had his fair number of successes, but the grand dream of reconciling Christendom isn't coming true. Then again, it didn't OTL.

I was going to remark that this seemed the perfect ATL anti-Lepanto, until you pointed out that it is basically historical - which means there's a chance for reversals.

Frankly, this is a good example of why I'm fond of noting Lepanto as overrated--Spain and the Turks were smashing up their fleets fairly regularly for a while there. In the end, most of what accomplished was to improve their fleets.

Since you didn't point it out in the footnotes, I will - Infante Duarte (or Edward), the 5th Duke of Guimarães, a grandson of Manuel I through the previous Duke of the same name, never married IOTL, and died in 1576, two years before King Sebastian. Had he lived, he would likely have inherited the throne, given his status as the only legitimate agnate of Manuel I (other than his aged uncle, Cardinal Henry, who also reigned IOTL). Therefore, as you might imagine, I strongly support this marriage.

It's worth noting that Charles' and his children all have a much closer line of descent the throne than him, being descendants not only of Manuel but Jao III.

You know, Henry could always summon the Estates-General once more in order to raise the money he needs...

After what happened last time? Besides one of Henri's problems is he needs money to pay back the money he OWES.

And the plot thickens! The Arch-Puritan choosing to ally himself with a pretender can only be good news for the Libertines.

Thing is Knox isn't really viewed as that important a guy in Puritan circles, especially English Puritan circles--nowhere near the importance of Hooper, or Fox.

Margaret certainly hitched her cart to the right horse! She is now the Queen of Hungary, which places her just below Henry and Mary in the old order of precedence.

And you may rest assured Elizabeth is seething, especially as this was all her idea.

And let me guess, little Prince Arthur was depicted nude, like all other putti depictions of Cupid from the Renaissance. That would certainly explain his desire to relocate it!

There was a tastefully draped cloth covering certain areas. It was more being depicted as a chubby winged baby. In a picture where his parents are pulling their standard 'Look at us, Europe! We're gorgeous!" shtick.

 

[Brainbin]

Given the many changes to the Tudor family tree since the previous edition, I felt that a new edition was justified! So, without further delay, allow me to present...

Line of Descent from Henry VII, First Head of the Royal House of Tudor (as of 1564)

HH Henry VII Tudor (1457-1509), King of England (and France) by right of conquest from 1485; married Elizabeth of York (1466-1503) in 1485, and had issue:

• HG Prince Arthur Tudor (1486-1502), Prince of Wales; Duke of Cornwall; Earl of Chester; married Infanta Catherine of Aragon (1485-1536) in 1501; no issue. Note: by Anglican tradition, the marriage was consummated; by Catholic tradition, it was not.

Henrician Line

• HM Henry VIII Tudor (1491-1545), King of England (and France) by right of inheritance from 1509; King of Ireland by right of conquest from 1536; married (firstly) Infanta Catherine of Aragon (1485-1536), Dowager Princess of Wales, in 1509, and had issue; annulled in the Anglican Church in 1533 (and resultant issue declared illegitimate); married (secondly) Anne Boleyn, Marquess of Pembroke, in 1533 (unrecognized, and resultant issue considered illegitimate, by the Catholic Church), and had issue:

With Infanta Catherine of Aragon (illegitimate in the Anglican church, legitimate in the Catholic Church):

• Lady Mary Tudor (1516-44); married John Oldenburg (1521-), Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Haderslev, in 1539, and had issue:

• John Christian Oldenburg of Schleswig-Holstein-Haderslev (1544-); married Anna von Wettin of Saxony (1544-), and had issue:

• Mary Oldenburg (1560-).

• Anna Oldenburg (1561-).

• Catherine Oldenburg (1562-).

• Christina Oldenburg (1562-).

• John Maurice Oldenburg (1563-).

With Anne Boleyn, Marquess of Pembroke (illegitimate in the Catholic Church, legitimate in the Anglican Church):

• HM Henry IX Tudor (1533-), King of England (and France) and Ireland from 1545; King Consort of Scots from 1561; married HG Mary Stewart (1541-), Queen of Scots, in 1559, and had issue:

• HG Prince Arthur Tudor (1561-), Prince of Wales; Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay; Earl of Chester and Carrick; Baron Renfrew; Lord of the Isles; Prince and Great Steward of Scotland.

• Princess Mary Tudor (1564-).

• Princess Anne Tudor (1564-).

• HSH Princess Elizabeth Tudor (1535-), Electress Consort of Saxony; married HSH John Frederick II von Wettin (1529-), Elector of Saxony, in 1551, and had issue:

• HSH Frederick Henry von Wettin (1552-), Electoral Prince of Saxony.

• John Frederick III von Wettin (1561-62).

• John Casimir von Wettin (1563-).

• HG Prince Edward Tudor (1537-), Duke of York; Lord High Steward from 1550; married (firstly) Barbara von Hessen (1536-58) in 1553, and had issue; married (secondly) Princess Madeleine de Bourbon of Navarre (1551-) in 1565, no issue:

With Barbara von Hessen:

• Lord Thomas Tudor of York (1554-58).

• Lord Edgar Tudor of York (1557-).

• Lady Barbara Tudor of York (1559-).

With Diane de la Marck, his mistress (issue illegitimate and unrecognized):

• Frances de Cleves (1563-). Purportedly the daughter of Jacques de Cleves, deceased husband of Diane de la Marck.

• Prince Thomas Tudor (1540-44).

• Princess Margaret Tudor (1540-), Queen Consort of Hungary and Princess Consort of Transylvania; married John II Sigismund Zapolya (1540-), King of Hungary and Prince of Transylvania, in 1558, and had issue:

• Prince John Henry Zapolya of Hungary and Transylvania (1562-).

With Elizabeth Blount, his mistress (universally regarded as illegitimate):

• HG Henry FitzRoy (1519-36), 1st Duke of Richmond and Somerset; married Lady Mary Howard of Norfolk (1519-58) in 1533, and had issue:

• HG Arthur Fitzroy (1536-), 2nd Duke of Richmond and Somerset; Lord High Constable from 1550; married Lady Jane Grey of Dorset (1537-) in 1553, and had issue:

• Lady Mary Anne Fitzroy of Richmond and Somerset (1557-).

• Lord Henry Fitzroy of Richmond and Somerset (1559-), by courtesy the Earl of Nottingham.

• Lady Catherine Fitzroy of Richmond and Somerset (1561-).

• Lady Frances Fitzroy of Richmond and Somerset (1563-).

Margaretian Line

• HG Princess Margaret Tudor (1489-1541), Queen Consort of Scots; married (firstly) HG James IV Stewart (1473-1513), King of Scots, in 1503, and had issue; married (secondly) Archibald Douglas, 6th Earl of Angus (1489-1550), in 1514, until the Pope granted her a divorce in 1527, and had issue; married (thirdly) Henry Stewart (1495-1552), 1st Lord Methven, in 1527, no issue:

With James IV, King of Scots:

• HG James V Stewart (1512-44), King of Scots; married (firstly) Princess Madeleine of Valois (1520-37), in 1537, no issue; married (secondly) Marie of Guise (1515-52) in 1538, and had issue:

• HG Mary Stewart (1542-), Queen of Scots from 1544; Queen Consort of England (and France) and Ireland from 1561; married HM Henry IX Tudor (1533-), King of England (and France) and Ireland, in 1559, and had issue:

• HG Prince Arthur Tudor (1561-), Prince of Wales; Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay; Earl of Chester and Carrick; Baron Renfrew; Lord of the Isles; Prince and Great Steward of Scotland.

• Princess Mary Tudor (1564-).

• Princess Anne Tudor (1564-).

• Princess Antoinette Stuart of Scotland (1544-), Countess of Montgomery; married Gabriel de Lorges (1530-), Count of Montgomery, in 1562, and had issue:

• James de Lorges (1563-).

With Archibald Douglas, 6th Earl of Angus:

• Margaret Douglas, Dowager Countess of Lennox (1515-); married Matthew Stewart, 4th Earl of Lennox (1516-47) in 1544, and had issue:

• Henry Stewart of Lennox (1547), by courtesy the Lord Darnley.

• Charles Stuart, 5th Earl of Lennox (1547-); married Lady Elizabeth Hamilton of Arran (1544-) in 1563, and had issue:

• Alexander Stuart of Lennox (1563-), by courtesy the Lord Darnley.

Marian Line

• HH Princess Mary Tudor (1496-1533), Dowager Queen of France; Duchess of Suffolk; married (firstly) HH Louis XII Valois (1462-1515), King of France (and Naples), in 1514, no issue; married (secondly) HG Charles Brandon (1484-1545), 1st Duke of Suffolk, in 1515, and had issue:

• Frances Brandon (1517-59), Marchioness of Dorset; married Henry Grey (1514-), 3rd Marquess of Dorset, in 1533, and had issue:

• Lady Jane Grey of Dorset (1537-); married HG Arthur Fitzroy (1536-), 2nd Duke of Richmond and Somerset, in 1553, and had issue:

• Lady Mary Anne Fitzroy of Richmond and Somerset (1557-).

• Lord Henry Fitzroy of Richmond and Somerset (1559-), by courtesy the Earl of Nottingham.

• Lady Catherine Fitzroy of Richmond and Somerset (1561-).

• Lady Frances Fitzroy of Richmond and Somerset (1563-).

• Lady Catherine Grey of Dorset (1540-); married Henry Herbert of Cardiff (1539-) in 1561, and had issue:

• William Herbert (1561-).

• Henry Herbert (1563-).

• Lady Mary Grey of Dorset (1545-).

• Lord Thomas Grey of Dorset (1555-).

• Eleanor Brandon (1519-47), Countess of Cumberland; married Henry Clifford (1517-), 2nd Earl of Cumberland, in 1537, and had issue:

• Lady Margaret Clifford of Cumberland (1540-); married in 1558 Lord Guildford Dudley of Buckingham (1535-), elected Member of the Parliament of 1564 for the constituency of Old Sarum, and had issue:

• John Dudley (1560-61).

• Robert Dudley (1561-).

• Henry Brandon (1523-34), Earl of Lincoln.

---

Regnal names of monarchs are bolded. Personal names are anglicized.

Henry VII (with his wife, Elizabeth of York) currently has 38 living descendants, as of the end of 1564. Nine of these have been born since 1562.

Seven persons (to date) descend from Henry VII two different ways: Prince Arthur Tudor, Princess Mary Tudor, and Princess Anne Tudor, whose parents are first cousins once removed; Lord Henry Fitzroy, Lady Mary Anne Fitzroy, Lady Catherine Fitzroy, and Lady Frances Fitzroy, whose parents are second cousins.

The only surviving Catholic line of descent is that of Margaret Douglas, Dowager Countess of Lennox. The Henrician and Marian lines are entirely Protestant.

I did my best to avoid anachronisms, so please feel free to correct my form, any of you incredibly knowledgeable forum-goers Though this tree built on the previous edition which covered up to 1562, and was completed with the help of Space Oddity, I claim sole responsibility for any errors.

 

[xt828]

I know that it's correct, but it's a bit weird seeing all the monarchs except the Scottish being His/Her Majesty. I wonder if Mary's marriage might bring about a similar change to that instituted by Henry VIII?

Great post.

 

[Geordie]

Wow, what an update! My first "TL" was shorter than that!

I don't know how you keep on top of all these Germanic shenanigans. Three brother all being Dukes of the same place? It's all a bit much, really.

Everywhere appears to be either boiling over or simmering dangerously. Both Henry IX and his newly crowned brother in law seem to be taking their eyes off the ball, being far too content with how things are going. Henry still has people singing menacingly in London, coupled with the perennial Irish question. I can't help thinking that sending the Man of Marble isn't the correct answer.

Mad Magnus Vasa should be a major worry for his brother, but Erik appears to have joined the two mentioned above in the "It's great to be King" club.

The Danes are unhappy, Selim is worried about Persia, and equally worried about leaving Istanbul. the inquisition are causing more problems in Spain and Burgundy. France would be a Charlie Foxtrot, if the HREGN didn't exist. By the way, I like Mary's take on "Little Netty." Especially as in the Geordie dialect, a "Netty" is a toilet!

As always, the style is brilliant, and the scope magnificent. Providing you can keep your sanity, and keep a track of the HRE, I look forward to seeing the next bit when it is ready!

 

[Poor Little Rhode Island]

These family trees are beginning to make Baby Jesus' lower lip start to quiver.

Nevertheless, it is a masterful work! Worthy of being part of Space Oddity's opus.

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

...
I don't know how you keep on top of all these Germanic shenanigans. Three brother all being Dukes of the same place? It's all a bit much, really.
...

No, it is not. The Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg for example did exist from 1235 until 1806, but since 1267 it had been divided into several principalities (Brunswick(-Wolfenbüttel) (1269-1806), Calenberg (better known als Electorate Brunswick-Lüneburg or Hanover (1432-1806, electorate since 1692)), Lüneburg (1269-1705), Göttingen (1345-1495), Grubenhangen (1286-1596)). All these princes were also dukes of Brunswick-Lüneburg.

And I am very certain that you could find more examples.

 

[Geordie]

No, it is not. The Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg for example did exist from 1235 until 1806, but since 1267 it had been divided into several principalities (Brunswick(-Wolfenbüttel) (1269-1806), Calenberg (better known als Electorate Brunswick-Lüneburg or Hanover (1432-1806, electorate since 1692)), Lüneburg (1269-1705), Göttingen (1345-1495), Grubenhangen (1286-1596)). All these princes were also dukes of Brunswick-Lüneburg.

And I am very certain that you could find more examples.

Sorry, I didn't phrase that very well. I was referring to:

He then marches his troops to Saxe-Lauenburg, where his army, aided by the Duke's new best buddy, Francis II von Ascania, Duke of Saxe-Lauenburg, frighten off the garrisons of Magnus II von Ascania, Duke of Saxe-Lauenburg, and swiftly take possession of the area for Francis and his little brother Maurice, Duke of Saxe-Lauenburg. A quick degression is now in order to explain all this baffling Ascanian drama.

I appreciate that each Duke may well be - as you say - the holder of a unique and independent title. If so, this would be a fine example to complement the Brunswick-Lüneburgs you mention. Such things do, however make for some cracking sentences, like the one I quoted.

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

A look into wikipedia tells us that at that time Saxe-Lauenburg was ruled jointly by three brothers.

 

[Thespitron 6000]

A look into wikipedia tells us that at that time Saxe-Lauenburg was ruled jointly by three brothers.

Each one more brotherly than the last!

 

[Brainbin]

I know that it's correct, but it's a bit weird seeing all the monarchs except the Scottish being His/Her Majesty. I wonder if Mary's marriage might bring about a similar change to that instituted by Henry VIII?

Why bother when their son can simply be addressed as His Majesty the King of Britain and sidestep the question entirely?

These family trees are beginning to make Baby Jesus' lower lip start to quiver.

Yes, at some point I'm going to have to prune the Margaretian and Marian branches to focus more narrowly on the Henrician trunk - but there are too many characters who deserve to remain in focus for the time being. Alexander Stuart promises to emerge as a prominent character in later years, and I am curious as to the eventual marital plans of our younger Greys as well, particularly Thomas (hunchbacked dwarf or not, he's still the next Marquess of Dorset, and nominally ahead of his sister Jane and her children with Arthur Fitzroy in the line of succession). Finally, there's Guildford Dudley, now the Heir Presumptive to the Dukedom of Buckingham and all subsidiary titles attached thereto. Whether his elder brother Ambrose remains capable of siring progeny after having been so badly scalded is a question that has yet to be answered.

Nevertheless, it is a masterful work! Worthy of being part of Space Oddity's opus.

Thank you for flattering me immensely

 

[artemisscribe]

Might i be so bold as to petition for Parliament to remain at Nonsuch?
Or can it at least be saved from it's real life fate of being torn down by a royal mistress (Barbara Palmer is the only historical figure i have an irrational hatred of, simply because she tore down my favourite Tudor palace)

 

[Space Oddity]

Partially in celebration of the posting of this excellent family tree, enjoy the new, absolutely official portrait of Henry IX.

He saw red as his color.

 

[St. Just]

Is that an OTL picture of Norfolk? Because it certainly looks like him.

 

[Space Oddity]

Is that an OTL picture of Norfolk? Because it certainly looks like him.

It's an unknown gentleman. My personal bet, based on the painter and the time period is that it's Edward Courtenay, Earl of Devon.

But I'm not sure.

 

[St. Just]

I say Norfolk because earlier you posted a portrait, and the men in both portraits have very, very similar faces.

 

[Space Oddity]

Well, it can't be Henry Howard, as he was dead by the time that was painted.

 

[Voice of The Empire]

That is a magnificent beard Henry's sporting there. If Henry 8 were still alive, the jealousy would drive him mad. Or at least into the arms of another mistress. Because Henry.

 

[Geordie]

That is a magnificent beard Henry's sporting there.

My thoughts exactly. A suitable beard for the father of the first King of Great Britain. The fact that I am both ginger and bearded has nothing to do with that opinion. Honest...