Plausibility check - distinct Galician culture (East Slavic)

[Analytical Engine]

I have been trawling through the forum to see if this has come up before, but I can't seem to find anything.

Basically, I am wondering how easy it would be for a distinctive Galician (the East Slavic variety) language and culture to develop, separate from Ukrainian. Basically, it needs to be distinctive enough that it is recognised as separate, including by their fellow east Slavic peoples. A recognisable Ukrainian identity still needs to exist ITTL, by the way, along with Belarusian.

Perhaps having Poland somehow never being in union with Lithuania?

Or would it be possible to do this later? IIRC, distinctive Belorussian, Ukrainian and Rusyn identities evolved from a generic Ruthenian identity, which (as far as a cursory investigation indicates) is generally considered to have occurred by the late 18th century. Would it be possible for alt-Galician to stem from the evolution from Ruthenian into Old Belarusian and Old Ukrainian?

I am quite happy for a significantly larger alt-Rusyn equivalent, but bonus points if this (or a more direct equivalent) also exists.

Extra bonus points if a group equivalent to West Polesian is similarly recognised.

Here is a page on Wikipedia about the so-called Slavic "microlanguages":

Slavic microlanguages - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Techno Angel]

Wouldn't you know it, a lot of people in Russia legit think that such a thing not only exists but is a biggest source of Russia's misfortunes(besides Americans, Brits and reptilians ofc)

 

[Aghasverov]

Perhaps religious differences could play a role? After all, the Eastern Catholic/"Uniate" Church persisted in Galicia for far longer, after it had been suppressed in the Russian Empire...

 

[rfmcdonald]

You might well get a Galician/Ukrainian split that would be durable if Polish rule over Eastern Slavs had never extended beyond what is now western Ukraine. You might well see Ukrainian ethnogenesis in this timeline anyway.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Avert this succession dispute and you keep the kingdom of galicia around. A kingdom can lead to cultural-genesis just as much as vice versa. The dutch and austria, for example. Or even Norman Sicily.

Galicia–Volhynia Wars - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Avoid the fact that this guy's kids kept inheriting Ruthenia and you can diverge their cultures easier as well, at least within the aristocracy

Leo I of Galicia - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Arkenfolm]

I was actually thinking about this the other day. Anyway, it wouldn't so much be Galician but likely "Ruthenian" (for lack of a better term) since that cultural area extends into Podolia and other nearby areas of OTL Western Ukraine. They would probably merge with the Rusyn identity and would be Eastern Catholic in religion and speak a language which OTL would be identified among the Western dialects of Ukrainian.

I would say the best POD is to have Poland-Lithuania persist as the dominant state in this area, at least as far as their OTL expanse. The speakers of Old Ruthenian would evolve into the Lithuanians (pretty much the OTL Belarusians but with a slightly different dialect of Ruthenian, probably split between Orthodox and Eastern Catholic), the Ukrainians (Orthodox by religion in the southeast of Poland, descended in part from Cossacks), and the Ruthenians (Eastern Catholic by religion). If nationalism as we know it exists, then the Polish-Lithuanian state has every incentive to ensure a split like this happens and religiously would favour their fellow Catholics. Ruthenians would likely be more culturally Polonised as a result, possibly using a Latin alphabet written in the 19th century Ukrainian Latin orthography (which is basically Polish).

 

[AltoRegnant]

. If nationalism as we know it exists, then the Polish-Lithuanian state has every incentive to ensure a split like this happens and religiously would favour their fellow Catholics. Ruthenians would likely be more culturally Polonised as a result, possibly using a Latin alphabet written in the 19th century Ukrainian Latin orthography (which is basically Polish).

The PLC also has every reason to try and polonize these "falsethenians," though. Just as they did the Lithuanian nobility

 

[kasumigenx]

Avert this succession dispute and you keep the kingdom of galicia around. A kingdom can lead to cultural-genesis just as much as vice versa. The dutch and austria, for example. Or even Norman Sicily.

Galicia–Volhynia Wars - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Avoid the fact that this guy's kids kept inheriting Ruthenia and you can diverge their cultures easier as well, at least within the aristocracy

Leo I of Galicia - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Another possibility is to Have Poland in union with Bohemia keeping Galicia Volhynia separate from Poland or in union with Lithuania.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

If Union of Lublin never happens then Red Ruthenia and Dnepr Ukraine are separated by Polish-Lithuanian border. IOTL post Union of Lublin border between Crown of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania eventually became (roughly) Ukraine-Belarus border.

 

[thezerech]

This isn't particularly plausible without vast changes, if at all, assuming a starting point in the medieval era.

You'd probably need to butterfly the Mongol invasions, which would change so much it's hard to judge anything.

The central issue is that the separation of Ukrainian and Belarusian languages is already evident in the 16th century. At the time Ukrainian was demonstrably the East Slavic variety spoken in Galicia. Ukrainian as spoken in Kyiv and Lviv, to say, Uzhhorod are different. Rusyn is a thing too. But Lviv and Kyiv Ukrainian isn't that different at all, and I'm speaking in a historical sense. Certainly closer than disparate varieties of German or regional Italian languages that did not preclude national identity formation. The issue is that after the Mongol invasions a great deal of movement occured from Galicia to settle depopulated areas in what's now central and southern Ukraine. The connectivity between Galicia and the rest of Ukraine to the east is significant. Galicians went to the Ostroh academy, and Orthodox religious institutions. Even the Greek Catholic Church ended up being a significant tool of Ukrainianization. It was a dividing point but as sectarian identity becomes less relevant that'll fall away. Further, as both Greek Catholics and Orthodox were second class citizens under Poland, the long term impetus is to team up over common heritage, language, and culture. The differences really between regions was never that significant.

I guess if you could maintain an independent Galician state for 800 years, there would be a distinct Galician identity. Still, culturally and religiously, it's connected to the rest of Ukraine and the broader Orthodox/East Slavic world in a way that disencentivizes independent identity formation.

Under the PLC Galicia was governed as part of Poland, until the mid 16th century the rest of Ukraine was considered Lithuania, there they had far more rights and power. When Poland effectively seized those regions, they reconfirmed the rights and privileges of Orthodox nobles. The basic proto-Ukrainian/Ruthenian and eventual Cossack identity that would later formulate was one that was spread fairly broadly across the entirety of Ukraine. In Galicia, where there had been twl anti-Polish revolts in the 1490s, a parallel revolt occured in 1648 to support Xmel'nyts'kyi's. The Polish state was incentivized to encourage polonization. Those who resisted were pulled into a broader proto-Ukrainian identity.

With early enough PoDs you can do this probably.

An interesting (but remote) possiblity exists where in 1917 both the Ukrainian People's Republic, in some form, and West Ukrainian People's Republic achieve independence, or at a minimum the ZUNR does. Neither particularly got along, politically. They probably wouldn't actually unify for a while, although I doubt Europe would survive without another major war to the equivalent of the modern day in this scenario, if you could keep them as separate states, both would identify as Ukrainian but have somewhat different ideas of what exactly that means. Although more difference would be political than anything else.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

The central issue is that the separation of Ukrainian and Belarusian languages is already evident in the 16th century.

And still linguistic border does not match ethnic border, as Polessian and Podlasian dialects of Belarusian are said to be closer to standard Ukrainian than standard Belarusian. So are Ukrainian surnames with -uk ending more common there than Belarusian surnames with -vich ending. So linguistic border does not need to be deciding factor.

Spoiler: Sample

That is sample of Podlassian "simple speech". Comments say it is closer to standard Ukrainian than Carpathian dialects are, you'd be able to tell if it is true.

 

[Gloss]

I guess if you could maintain an independent Galician state for 800 years, there would be a distinct Galician identity. Still, culturally and religiously, it's connected to the rest of Ukraine and the broader Orthodox/East Slavic world in a way that disencentivizes independent identity formation.

This is extremely non-sensical, identities formed within FAR more connected regions just fine. A separate kingdom existing even for a couple centuries would be more than enough.

 

[Gloss]

And still linguistic border does not match ethnic border, as Polessian and Podlasian dialects of Belarusian are said to be closer to standard Ukrainian than standard Belarusian. So are Ukrainian surnames with -uk ending more common there than Belarusian surnames with -vich ending. So linguistic border does not need to be deciding factor.

Spoiler: Sample

That is sample of Podlassian "simple speech". Comments say it is closer to standard Ukrainian than Carpathian dialects are, you'd be able to tell if it is true.

Another example is how easily Russianized Ukrainians in the Russian SSR were, by 1950 the Ukrainian language and identity was almost completely gone in Kuban or the Belgorod-Kursk-Voronezh region.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

This is extremely non-sensical, identities formed within FAR more connected regions just fine. A separate kingdom existing even for a couple centuries would be more than enough.

Dutch-German, Serbian-Montenegrin, Bulgarian-Macedonian... There are plenty of examples of separate identities emerging with 16th century and later splits.

 

[Gloss]

Dutch-German, Serbian-Montenegrin, Bulgarian-Macedonian... There are plenty of examples of separate identities emerging with 16th century and later splits.

German-Swiss or even Dutch-Flemish(although you could argue Belgian separatism was pushed by a minority of French speakers in France and only partially by religion among the masses), heck even the Czecho-Slovakia or Yugoslavia splitting shows that despite existing unificationist tendencies and despite an actual union being achieved for decades it can still crumble down the line.

 

[Thomas Lloyd]

Its very plausible if the Soviets were avoided and religion stayed more of a wedge issue. Galicia is mostly Greek-Catholic as opposed to the bulk of Ukraine and the rest of the East Slavic world. If people and politics in Ukraine and the Russian Empire remained as religious as they were before Soviet atheistization, religion would have been a very big divider, trumping ethnonational affiliation.

In fact, Galicia is still pretty distinct from the rest of Ukraine in that aspect. I remember being very perplexed by how religious the language is over there - people will often greet you in religious terms, kind of like Americans from the North can get perplexed when they visit a state in the South and rather than "see you" or "have a good day" the shopkeeper will wish you a blessed day, instead.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

German-Swiss or even Dutch-Flemish(although you could argue Belgian separatism was pushed by a minority of French speakers in France and only partially by religion among the masses), heck even the Czecho-Slovakia or Yugoslavia splitting shows that despite existing unificationist tendencies and despite an actual union being achieved for decades it can still crumble down the line.

There is also split among Carpathian Ruthenians-some identify as Ukrainians, other as separate nation (like Lemkos, who aftervww1 even proclaimed independent republic, that lasted 16 months).

 

[kasumigenx]

And still linguistic border does not match ethnic border, as Polessian and Podlasian dialects of Belarusian are said to be closer to standard Ukrainian than standard Belarusian. So are Ukrainian surnames with -uk ending more common there than Belarusian surnames with -vich ending. So linguistic border does not need to be deciding factor.

Spoiler: Sample

That is sample of Podlassian "simple speech". Comments say it is closer to standard Ukrainian than Carpathian dialects are, you'd be able to tell if it is true.

Some Ukrainian Nationalists claim the Polesian part of Belarus or rather the Brest Oblast because Ukraine claimed it on its initial independence.

Ukrainians are divided into Greek Catholic Ukrainians and Orthodox Ukrainians while Belarusians are divided into Polonized Latin Catholic Belarusians and Orthodox Belarusians.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Some Ukrainian Nationalists claim the Polesian part of Belarus or rather the Brest Oblast because Ukraine claimed it on its initial independence.

Ukrainians are divided into Greek Catholic Ukrainians and Orthodox Ukrainians while Belarusians are divided into Polonized Latin Catholic Belarusians and Orthodox Belarusians.

If Stalin for some reason decided to add Brest' to Ukrainian SSR these western Polessians would be Ukrainians today. It was transitional area and could go both ways.

And Belarusian speaking Greek Catholics existed too (last pockets were around Suwałki in Congress Poland), until Tsar Alexander II completly delegalized Greek Catholic church in Russian Empire in 1875.

 

[Aghasverov]

Its very plausible if the Soviets were avoided and religion stayed more of a wedge issue. Galicia is mostly Greek-Catholic as opposed to the bulk of Ukraine and the rest of the East Slavic world. If people and politics in Ukraine and the Russian Empire remained as religious as they were before Soviet atheistization, religion would have been a very big divider, trumping ethnonational affiliation.

In fact, Galicia is still pretty distinct from the rest of Ukraine in that aspect. I remember being very perplexed by how religious the language is over there - people will often greet you in religious terms, kind of like Americans from the North can get perplexed when they visit a state in the South and rather than "see you" or "have a good day" the shopkeeper will wish you a blessed day, instead.

That whole "Have a blessed day!" thing only started relatively recently... I don't ever remember hearing that... stuff... when I was a kid (I'm 50-something and living in NC....)