Poll: Which invention would have benefited the Roman Empire (until 395 AD) most?

[usertron2020]

It's not called stirrup, it's called stapeda.

And just to disent, i'm going to go with the microscope. The microscope implies a degree of knowledge of lenses and the laws of optics. After someone having invented the microscope, someone else would be able to reverse-engineer it, and create telescopes, binoculars and stereoscopes, all of them of great militar utility.

The germ theory wouldn't take too long to develop if the physicians begin to exhaustively examine the "humors" of diseased people under the microscope, and compare them with "healthy humors". The humor theory itself would collapse very quickly.

To dissent from your dissent, I would suggest something even more important for the immediate survival of Rome, as opposed to the survival of Western civilization. After all, this is all about preventing the Dark Ages, right?

Discover the Theory of Chemistry. REAL chemistry, not what the Ancient Greeks believed. Then you ultimately get dynamite. Blast through all those mountain passes, allowing the making of Roman Roads that are curved (saving tremendous time, effort, and money), chemically discover macadam, aspirin (available in tree bark form since the Old Stone Age, but once in concentrated pill form...), etc, etc, etc.

All this will ultimately mean that Germania and Dacia (hell, the whole of the Balkans) become more militarily and economically possible to conquer.

Guns are simply a matter of developing an understanding of the potential propellant properties of explosives. It took twelve centuries of Chinese fireworks before a wise man sat down and came up with the idea. A wise man named Ghengis Khan...

 

[SlyDessertFox]

What technology could help the Romans a lot when they're dealing with barbarian tribes?

The same exact technology they had. Seriously,the Roman army time and time again bested the barbarian armies in pitched battles, with Adrianople being one of the sole exceptions.

 

[Henriksson]

We know from atmospheric readings that metal smelting in the Roman empire peaked during the early imperial era. This was basically an empire that spent most of its history crumbling. The best one can hope for is that it collapses earlier and in a more dignified fashion.

How exactly could the Romans get windmills?

It's very likely there were some windmills inherited from the Hellenistic period, so perhaps one can instead ask "how can they keep them?"

 

[SlyDessertFox]

We know from atmospheric readings that metal smelting in the Roman empire peaked during the early imperial era. This was basically an empire that spent most of its history crumbling. The best one can hope for is that it collapses earlier and in a more dignified fashion.

Splits during third century crisis, thus keeping its infrastructure and institutions intact?

 

[usertron2020]

The same exact technology they had. Seriously,the Roman army time and time again bested the barbarian armies in pitched battles, with Adrianople being one of the sole exceptions.

Not after the development of heavy cavalry by the barbarians. Then they simply rode the old style Roman legions down. The legion was awesome on offensive in open terrain, not so much in harsher terrain or on defense. Especially after the barbarians learned not to mindlessly assault Roman fortifications.

But after 383 AD, the Romans stopped paying their army. So is it any wonder that they gave right of passage to the Barbarian tribes in exchange for their (the army and their dependents) being unmolested in turn?

 

[Jan Gronvik]

It is nice to see that so many of you have done the poll. I have also noticed that some of you would like to see other inventions/discoveries in the poll.
Therefore, I am thinking about a second poll on a new thread: a poll with your suggestions. So far, I have seen the following suggestions:

- The Stirrup

- The Horseshoe

- Zero and the Position System

- Germ Theory

- Theory of Chemistry

- Theory of Economics

- The Horse Collar,
EVEN THOUGH "It is evident that by the time of the Empire the Romans had a fully functional and useful harness system for equids which permitted their use in sport, war, and commerce. The load limit was on average 1 to 1 ½ metric tons for a team as I have demonstrated. The harness provided for traction points on either the shoulder or the chest. The system did in not any way impede the ability of the animal to breathe. Despite the development of the horse collar and the use of the horse in agriculture, and light hauling, the load limit was not increased in the Middle Ages."
http://www.humanist.de/rome/rts/conclusions.html

- The Moulboard Plough,
BUT "The Romans achieved the heavy wheeled mouldboard plough in the late 3rd and 4th century AD, when archaeological evidence appears, inter alia, in Roman Britain."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plough#Mouldboard_plough

- The Composite Bow,
BUT "The infantry archers of classical Greece and the Roman Empire used composite bows."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_bow

Are there any other inventions/discoveries that you would like to add to this new poll?

 

[Mr.J]

I still don't see how the printing press is viable without, you know, paper.

They had papyrus from Egypt, that was used as a fairly cheap writing surface through the region until the collapse of Mediterranean trade, IIRC.

 

[Jan Gronvik]

They had papyrus from Egypt, that was used as a fairly cheap writing surface through the region until the collapse of Mediterranean trade, IIRC.

Would the supply of papyrus be enough for the printing presses?

 

[Jan Gronvik]

It's very likely there were some windmills inherited from the Hellenistic period, so perhaps one can instead ask "how can they keep them?"

Sounds interesting. Where have you found evidence for windmills in Hellenistic times?

 

[DG Valdron]

The horse collar. Doubled the labour output of the horse. It would have been the equivalent of an moderate industrial revolution.

 

[Cash]

The concept of block printing and paper infiltrated Europe along the Silk Road. All it would take for an earlier development of both would be some sort of information exchange -- perhaps a Chinese trade delegation visits Rome or Roman envoys venture to China.

Papyrus would work on a flat-bed, sheet-fed printing press modeled after an olive oil press. And when papyrus is in short supply, the lessons from China are remembered. Linen-based paper is relatively simple to make and was the norm until the mid-19th Century. Roman Egypt was the center of linen manufacture. Hundreds of tons of mummy wrappings were shipped from Egypt to New England in the 1800s to feed the paper mills there, so certainly the linen industry of Egypt would have been substantial enough to supply feedstock in Roman times.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Not after the development of heavy cavalry by the barbarians. Then they simply rode the old style Roman legions down. The legion was awesome on offensive in open terrain, not so much in harsher terrain or on defense. Especially after the barbarians learned not to mindlessly assault Roman fortifications.

But after 383 AD, the Romans stopped paying their army. So is it any wonder that they gave right of passage to the Barbarian tribes in exchange for their (the army and their dependents) being unmolested in turn?

What? No, the Romans still continued to best the barbarians in pitched battle after pitched battle. Look at Majorian if you want to see that as late as the late 450's-early 460's, the western Roman Empire was still getting the better of barbarian armies in the field.The only group you can get away with is maybe the Huns- though again, when faced with a strong imperial field army, Atilla was defeated at Catalaunian Fields.

Again, Adrianople is really the sole exception to this. And can you source where you found that the Romans stopped paying their army after 383? I find that really hard to believe.

 

[Jan Gronvik]

Any more suggestions for inventions/discoveries in a new Roman poll?

 

[mcdo]

Any more suggestions for inventions/discoveries in a new Roman poll?

This might sound a bit odd, but hear me out: I think the Roman Empire could really benefit from a basic knowledge/theory of economics. The later Empire especially suffered from numerous financial problems, debasement of currency, tax revenue issues, etc.

They had some understanding of economic issues--for example, public figures warned of the dangers of all the hard currency flowing out to China in return for silk. All that is needed is for one or another philosopher to create a theory tying it all together.

A Roman Empire with even a basic knowledge of economic theory might suffer less from tax shortfalls and currency debasement, which would lead them better able to face whatever challenges do arise.

 

[Vingilótë]

This might sound a bit odd, but hear me out: I think the Roman Empire could really benefit from a basic knowledge/theory of economics. The later Empire especially suffered from numerous financial problems, debasement of currency, tax revenue issues, etc.

They had some understanding of economic issues--for example, public figures warned of the dangers of all the hard currency flowing out to China in return for silk. All that is needed is for one or another philosopher to create a theory tying it all together.

A Roman Empire with even a basic knowledge of economic theory might suffer less from tax shortfalls and currency debasement, which would lead them better able to face whatever challenges do arise.

I think this is a very good point; maybe the next poll should be dedicated to ideas, knowledge, or concepts, rather than "things"?

 

[Henriksson]

Sounds interesting. Where have you found evidence for windmills in Hellenistic times?

Heron discusses a pipe organ moved by a wheel with paddles at one point, and describes the wheel as being similar to an anemourion, an otherwise unfamiliar word of which the first part of the noun means wind, and the context makes it clear that it refers to something that uses wind to make rotational motion. The same word was also a common place-name - it seems likely it refers to a "windmill", a pretty conspicuous landscape feature.

 

[Jan Gronvik]

Heron discusses a pipe organ moved by a wheel with paddles at one point, and describes the wheel as being similar to an anemourion, an otherwise unfamiliar word of which the first part of the noun means wind, and the context makes it clear that it refers to something that uses wind to make rotational motion. The same word was also a common place-name - it seems likely it refers to a "windmill", a pretty conspicuous landscape feature.

Very interesting. I was aware of Heron's pipe organ but not the anemourion.
Are there any archeological finds that might be interpreted as windmills or hints in other ancient texts?
What are the modern place-names for some of the villages/towns called Anemourion in ancient times?

 

[Jan Gronvik]

So, what conclusion can we draw from this poll?

 

[jahg84]

Honestly how does this result in Rome controlling the hearts and minds of the people? If anything the printing press was one of the big advancements that helped lead to nationalism and to rebellious movements within a nation becoming more powerful. The Roman State will hardly have a monopoly on the printing press and various rebellious elements will also be capable of using it too.

This. The printing press would tear the empire apart. It would increase nationalism, sectarianism, and provide a tool for power seekers of various stripes. In addition it would lead to more educated people (educated in classical texts), who would not all be able to get those civil service jobs for which this education was a filter. Unemployed educated people who feel like they should lead, paging Marx.

Just to recap, nationalism, better organized religions, and empowered agitators are death to empires.

 

[Mark E.]

Would the supply of papyrus be enough for the printing presses?

You don't need paper or papyrus. Romans wrote on wax coated or clay tablets with a stylus. A news kiosk might consist of a master message laid in type that would simply be pressed into the wax or clay tablets.

Roman literacy was 30 percent at best. If you could double or triple that number, think of the amount of creativity you might enable.

After 1700, as a result of the Puritan stress for literacy, there were parts of England, Wales and New England where literacy approached 90 percent. In the next century, where did the industrial revolution take hold: England, Wales and New England.