Speaking of the Cretans, are the Cretans of this time still as famed for their archery as their ancestors did in the antiquity?
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The eagle's left head
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
If a 16th century Englishman described the Cretans as good archers,that's a high praise indeed!
The cretan bow was a composite one, reinforced with horn from kri-kri ibexes. They had been tinkering with these bows since antiquity and continued to improve them. Even though they had access to crossbows they didn't replace their composite bows. That will be an interesting showdown: cretan vs turkish composite bows.
That englishman's last sentence is a pretty apt description of Cretans today as well.If a 16th century Englishman described the Cretans as good archers,that's a high praise indeed!
The cretan bow was a composite one, reinforced with horn from kri-kri ibexes. They had been tinkering with these bows since antiquity and continued to improve them. Even though they had access to crossbows they didn't replace their composite bows. That will be an interesting showdown: cretan vs turkish composite bows.
Besides, neither the Savoyards nor the Byzantines had a fleet that could sustainably interdict passage across the Straits, but the Lascarids do have one that do just that.
Lascaris, replying to a point on the question earlier in the thread, noted that cutting the Straits to Turkish shipping and cutting the Ottoman realm in two was actually a an attempted strategy during the Nicopolis crusade, so I suppose he has already considered the idea.
Who would that be? Neither Philip nor Louis have reason to follow Blanche here.
Now that you mention it Louis was the one to bring the Navarrese company to the Balkans OTL...
Valentina the queen of Cyprus was the sixth of the legitimate children of Bernabo. Valentina the daughter of Gian Galeazzo was the duchess of Orleans born in 1371.
The first marriage already took place so cannot go up in smoke. The second... Theodore becomes 18 in 1382, his prospective wife will be just 10.
Michael Philanthropenos.
Likely less at the moment. The cost per lance at the moment is still at 18-20 florins per month. It goes down to 15 by 1404 and between 8-12 by 1424. Which implies a knight still costs twice as much at the moment as it will 50 years down the line.
For certain they can draw on quite a bit more naval manpower. And then there is the matter of geography. In a war with Venice Sicily has the choke points to the Adriatic. In a war with Genoa... Genoa has Galata and her Black sea colonies which can get completely isolated otherwise the fight is in the Western Mediterranean.
Yet at least. Could Hesychasm lead to an actual schism? Maybe to the extend its supporters are closer to the Western Church even by implication. So far there was a clear political split between Hesychast controlled Serbia/Byzantium and anti-hesychast Sicily.
The Ottomans did not become the Ottomans for being idiots during their growth...
Where I heard "the monks can't be difficult to deal with?" Ah yes iconoclasm. The monks won. As they did post Ferrara. In practical terms the Athonite monks are majority Hesychast and worse yet these evil evil Sicilians are turning their church lands to pronoias in anticipation of fighting the Turks. Intolerable! The monasteries need the gold more than the army.
One must note Macedonia is huge. The Lascarids will need time to fully integrate and re-centralize it and not everyone will be happy with this. The average free peasant or petty merchant? Sure. Local landed aristocracy and the Athos monks who had no problem with the Serb rule and now have to deal with a centralized thus by default more heavy handed state? Less clear.
Murad can also see the writing on the wall. Both need absorbing their gains. So for the immediate future likely peace. Post that a case can be made the Ottοmas shoud need to start investing on a fleet earlier TTL.
The army begun that way and has a heavy input of Balkan mercenaries, sorry regulars, but has also been evolving to kill knight heavy armies for the past several generations. It is likely better at dealing with Turkish armies that say French crusaders, but it's not wildly superior.
It is not a pike and shot army, that is a late 16th century beast. It is the evolution of a late Comnenian Byzantine army with a large contingent of pikemen. As such in a late 14th century battlefield it is a very nasty customer. But someone should not read into this things it is not.
Does it need to be much superior?
Having unified command and by extension a consistent strategy, can surely go a long way towards evening the odds.
I do hope that the schism still holds true in places like Russia and Serbia, while the Greek people with the Sicilians become anti-hesychast due to official church policy. While I can see Hesychasts practicing Hesychasm privately I don't see it not being something the Sicilian government will allow to continue.
Yeah. They will be the primary rival for the Sicilians from now on, as the other states can't project that far or are too weak.
While they can pull on the Greeks to build their navy, I think it'll be a while before the Ottomans can match the Sicilians in terms of the calibre of the sailers and the people who lead the navy would especially be something that the Ottomans don't have and would need to build up.
So its more cavalry focused then?
Frankly the development of pike and shot is really more about doctrine and how the men are trained. If we get a few revolutionary thinkers along the development of the terico or something akin to it could be developed much earlier.
The issue with the pike and shot as it stands currently is that there is no shot just yet. Crossbows are very useful but they aren't enough for this.
Yeah ig... I do think they're really close though.
I do hope we get more mentions of cannonry at this point. The Lascarids should have access to them now.
I think the Ottomans would be their first set back. With the fact that the Sicilians have to keep Turkish nomads away at the same time as fight the main Ottoman army their job would be significantly harder. The two states being rivals for a bit would be cool at least.
Part 75
Syracuse, March 1376
Agnes looked at her younger brother with some concern. Louis was married to Constance of Aragon, the elder daughter of Peter IV of Aragon. Her brother had created a mercenary company during the French civil war. With Charles V of France wanting Louis and his "Navaresse Company" out of his heir he had paid him off to go find a title somewhere else. Louis had bought off the title of king of Albania from Frederick of Aragon, exiled in the court of Peter IV for the past several decades and not the sharpest mind in the court, recruited even more mercenaries from Aragon adding them to the 2,000 he already had and then taken his mercenaries to conquer his kingdom from the Albanian lords holding it. It wasn't the greatest choice of a royal title but it wasn't as if many were on offer. And after all an allied kingdom under her little brother in Albania could prove useful...
Durazzo, July 1376
The port fell to Louis Navaresse. Thopia's Albanians had retreated in the interior refusing battle though. Louis have numbers on his side but conquering his kingdom would take time. In the meantime Louis needed to keep his army paid...
Constantinople, August 1376
Andronikos IV was back in the throne launching a coup with Genoese support. Andronikos had paid off the Genoese by giving them control of the island of Tenedos in front of the straits and the port town of Ainos in Thrace, one of the few left to imperial control. Sicily was not happy at the news of Tenedos being given to Genoa. But Andronikos had also overthrown patriarch Philotheos and replaced with with Makarios. Philotheos was an avowed hesychast, as long as he held the ecumenical throne coming to a compromise between Constantinople and the bishops in Lascarid Greece had proven problematic. Makarios could prove more pliable...
Rome, January 1377
Gregory XI returned to Rome. He would be forced to return temporarily to Avignon following riots in Rome in May but he would be back to Rome afterwards.
Athens, June 1377
Alexandros Philanthropenos was getting frustrated. He was, with little doubt the second strongest man in the realm. The damn monks in Mount Athos didn't seem to care much, neither did the aristocrats in Macedonia. The monks were up in arms due to him turning their huge estates in Macedonia to pronoias. Of course it was all about hesychasm and the basileus being subservient to the papists. Or so they loudly proclaimed at least. That the basileus remained excommunicated by the pope? Who cared about such minutia when he dared use their estates for the army that would be needed sooner rather than later to fight the Turks? As for the aristocracy? Living in Serb stateless was apparently preferable to living in a proper country. Some of them would like have no compunctions about selling out to the Turks if it would secure their precious estates. He had no doubt that he would overcome his difficulties, after all he had money, troops and as seen since the time of his grandfather and the elder Alexander the lower classes would return protecting them with loyalty and they matter more. But what was been achieved was slowing down reform and reorganization of the new Macedonian lands. And Alexandros was in a hurry. For now Murad remained mostly content in Prussa, Bursa the Turks had renamed it. But for how long would that continue?
Naples, December 1377
Another year came to an end. Come February the country would be at peace for the past eleven years. Charles IV was continuing the thankless job of putting the pieces of what a century ago claimed to be on the verge of becoming an empire dominating the Mediterranean together. It was no easy work. Abruzzo in the north was independent in all but name. Within the rest of the kingdom Charles could count on his own admittedly extensive estates and was trying to bring the rest of the country under centralized control one baron at a time.
Agnes looked at her younger brother with some concern. Louis was married to Constance of Aragon, the elder daughter of Peter IV of Aragon. Her brother had created a mercenary company during the French civil war. With Charles V of France wanting Louis and his "Navaresse Company" out of his heir he had paid him off to go find a title somewhere else. Louis had bought off the title of king of Albania from Frederick of Aragon, exiled in the court of Peter IV for the past several decades and not the sharpest mind in the court, recruited even more mercenaries from Aragon adding them to the 2,000 he already had and then taken his mercenaries to conquer his kingdom from the Albanian lords holding it. It wasn't the greatest choice of a royal title but it wasn't as if many were on offer. And after all an allied kingdom under her little brother in Albania could prove useful...
Durazzo, July 1376
The port fell to Louis Navaresse. Thopia's Albanians had retreated in the interior refusing battle though. Louis have numbers on his side but conquering his kingdom would take time. In the meantime Louis needed to keep his army paid...
Constantinople, August 1376
Andronikos IV was back in the throne launching a coup with Genoese support. Andronikos had paid off the Genoese by giving them control of the island of Tenedos in front of the straits and the port town of Ainos in Thrace, one of the few left to imperial control. Sicily was not happy at the news of Tenedos being given to Genoa. But Andronikos had also overthrown patriarch Philotheos and replaced with with Makarios. Philotheos was an avowed hesychast, as long as he held the ecumenical throne coming to a compromise between Constantinople and the bishops in Lascarid Greece had proven problematic. Makarios could prove more pliable...
Rome, January 1377
Gregory XI returned to Rome. He would be forced to return temporarily to Avignon following riots in Rome in May but he would be back to Rome afterwards.
Athens, June 1377
Alexandros Philanthropenos was getting frustrated. He was, with little doubt the second strongest man in the realm. The damn monks in Mount Athos didn't seem to care much, neither did the aristocrats in Macedonia. The monks were up in arms due to him turning their huge estates in Macedonia to pronoias. Of course it was all about hesychasm and the basileus being subservient to the papists. Or so they loudly proclaimed at least. That the basileus remained excommunicated by the pope? Who cared about such minutia when he dared use their estates for the army that would be needed sooner rather than later to fight the Turks? As for the aristocracy? Living in Serb stateless was apparently preferable to living in a proper country. Some of them would like have no compunctions about selling out to the Turks if it would secure their precious estates. He had no doubt that he would overcome his difficulties, after all he had money, troops and as seen since the time of his grandfather and the elder Alexander the lower classes would return protecting them with loyalty and they matter more. But what was been achieved was slowing down reform and reorganization of the new Macedonian lands. And Alexandros was in a hurry. For now Murad remained mostly content in Prussa, Bursa the Turks had renamed it. But for how long would that continue?
Naples, December 1377
Another year came to an end. Come February the country would be at peace for the past eleven years. Charles IV was continuing the thankless job of putting the pieces of what a century ago claimed to be on the verge of becoming an empire dominating the Mediterranean together. It was no easy work. Abruzzo in the north was independent in all but name. Within the rest of the kingdom Charles could count on his own admittedly extensive estates and was trying to bring the rest of the country under centralized control one baron at a time.
Great update, and man another palace coup, the Palaiologoi really are fighting over scraps at this point.
Fair enough, I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert on the period.
Also the Anjou of Naples at this point as well - the issue being when the the tipping point of a Lascaris conquest of Naples and unification of South Italy would be reached, how would react the most interested countries (Papacy, France, Aragon, Genoa). Speaking of Genoa, for sure the Superba wouldn't waste time to fill the vacuum left by Venice, but that was expected - Sicily made the work for it...
The Lascarids reclaiming their rightful throne and putting the Palaiologoi out of their misery cannot come soon enough.
Point being, would be worthy saving Constantinople or wouldn't be better first forging a new Empire on the ashes of the Eastern Roman Empire?
Constantinople at this stage would only drag resources for Sicily-Greece, when South Italy is far from being unified and Greece proper (Macedonia at least) would be likely restless for some decades...
For much I enjoy Eastern Roman resurgence TLs, my feel is Sicily-Greece should expand and consolidate in other more congenial directions for the Lascaris. Besides, the Despotate is essentially de jure and de facto indipendent, could concede would regard itself as separatist just to not break the lingering bonds with Constantinople, but more by convenience because surely the Sicilians want the Turks out of Europe at least and not only them.
Murad is a very capable ruler. However, at this point in history I doubt the sultan can completely control his gazis. Therefore, I expect raids and counter-raids to take place even without the Sultan leading his army west.
Which will be... problematic. Or at least more challenging now than it was in the OTL mid 15th century.
A state fleet - the Ottomans won't develop a large merchant galley fleet, needs a lot of money.
Without Macedonia, the Ottomans will lack a major source of their OTL income. I think it would make sense that Thrace was more devastated by the byzantine civil wars than Macedonia that had fallen relatively easily to Dusan.
Then it is the matter of centralization. Beyazit Yildirim might have started the centralization process, but it was accelerated by Muard I and especially Mehmed II. One can argue that this process might start sooner. However, at this stage the sultan needs the tribal chieftains much more than Mehmed II. It will be politically much more difficult to impose central authority in the same degree.
Then it is the matter of the Maritime Beyliks at the coast. The official reason for ottoman aggression was that the beyliks didn't allow the Ottomans to focus on the Holy War in Europe, by merely existing. I expect the same excuse to be offered in TTL as well. However, the Ottomans will not be as strong as in OTL, while the Aydinids won't have lost Smyrna that will continue to be a major trade center. They lost a major naval battle basically a generation ago, but keeping Smyrna makes them stronger in 1372 than in OTL. Therefore I believe that annexing the Maritime Beyliks won't be as easy as in OTL. Even when they will be annexed, a tight integration in a centralized state will be as difficult as in OTL, when the anatolia elites sought Timur's support. At the very least, the Ottomans will face revolts when they face a peer opponent west.
While Aydin is in a somewhat better position compared to OTL, the same applies to the Karamanids as well. Alaattin Ali of Karaman didn't appreciate the Ottoman expansion in Anatolia. With the Ottomans facing a powerful opponent in the west, he is in a much better position to combat ottoman influence over the beyliks. He is in a position similar of the Safavids in the 16th century. There are certain differences though since the Ottoman Sultanate is not nearly as centralized or developed as that of its 16th century counterpart.
On the matter of income, I would argue that if they "exchange" the OTL annexation of Macedonia and Thrace with vast swathes of Asia Minor, the Ottomans will still receive a lot less income than OTL. In 1490, nomads made up 27% of the total the population of the Anadolu Eyalet. Back in the 1370/80s the percentage of nomads should have been higher since nomadic pastoralists would have been less affected from the plague than sedentary peasants. These groups at the time provided little to no taxes at all. In OTL 1475, the Rumeli Eyalet provided 81% of the total income. The anatolian income was depended on the copper mines of Kastamonu (45%). It should be noted that Phocaea provided 6% of the total anatolian income. It should be noted that Ainos in 1475 provided 11,000 gold ducats, more or less the same as Edirne (12,000).
Overall, I don't think it is a coincidence that the Maritime Bayliks didn't deploy large numbers of galleys, but they mostly restricted themselves to light vessels. The collapse of the byzantine rule was accompanied by economic and demographic collapse. And then, the Black Death arrived. So, a viable Lascarid Empire in the Balkans means a significantly reduced income for the Ottomans.
Last but not least, when the Ottomans try to develop a fleet from a smaller tax base, they will have to ask themselves some tough questions: Do we expand the standing army of Janisarries and Kapikulu Cavalry - the latter had reached 3,000 men by 1475, or do we invest in galleys ? Or both ?
And soon he will have even more money. The Sicilians have a tradition of silver mining in Longobucco and they just conquered Chalkidiki. One would expect that they would follow the OTL ottoman example and invest in the Siderokausia silver mines. The OTL sultan's cut from the production ranged from 9,000-30,000 ducats with an average of 18,000. Not bad at all! Not to mention that the additional bullion that won't go to the state's coffers as tax, will support the realm's economy in a time of silver scarcity.
At least they have some institutional knowledge of using horse archers. Limited perhaps but still valuable. More importantly, they have used the feigned retreat way too many times to fall blindly at such traps themselves.
The Lascarids enjoy a clear superiority in infantry: At this point the Ottomans have around 20,000 Yaya infantrymen of very limited value, Azabs - only a bit better than Yayas and 2,000 Janissaries. The latter should be armed with composite bows and melee weapons and at this point, they are better suited as assault troops in sieges. The Janissaries used their composite bows behind sharpened stakes in order to be protected from cavalry.
All of the infantry, of both great and low quality, are light infantrymen armed for the most part with bows.
By the time of Kosovo Polje the composition of the Ottoman Army was as follows according to Ericson:
It is really helpful that the Catepan has a large realm south of Olympus that is already centralized and tightly integrated. He has a huge base of support there that allows him to act a bit more freely with the macedonian aristocracy. Another good thing is that most of their retainers were slaughtered at Maritsa. At this point, the macedonian castles and towns will be garrisoned by regulars and not by local lords and their retainers. There is always the choice of gaining the support of a part of the local elite, by providing opportunities and lands to their second sons in Italy and Sicily. Basilicata is still recovering after all. Lastly, the House of Philanthropenos has dealt with more powerful and proud lords: the option of "heads, spikes, walls" is always available.
The Ottomans managed the same thing in relatively short time. In 1383 they firstly invaded Macedonia, by the end of the 1380s Macedonia was a core and peaceful region. The Catepan has been working his magic for the best part of 6 years already.
Speaking of serbian statelets, the Ottomans were playing a game of divide and conquer with the serbian and bulgarian principalities. I don't see why the Catepan won't do the same and try to increase his influence north. His major drawback is that he is anti-hesychast. On the other hand, he doesn't have hereditary semi-indipendent uc-beys who will pillage even allies and vassals. In OTL when a serbian lord got cosy with the Sultan, his rivals couldn't do much. Now, they can get under the protection of the Catepan.
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Monthly Donor
genoa kinda made it clear:
they also implied that they much prefer Sicily to many other countries as they do not betray you as long as you don't piss them off, which cannot be said to any other ally they had so far that tried to conquer them at some point. Sure they aren't a full commited ally, but still probably the best one Sicily had so far. they won't react in any negative way to South Italy being fully united at the moment since it is under an ally and trade partner
pls don't ban me
Monthly Donor
no hate to Costantinople, but even if they take it, they can keep is a second rate city for the moment since Sicilian cities are more populous right now. i don't think it would be that huge drain ( just repair the walls and then if someone attacks you have the means to bring troops in to defend).
it has a huge advantage on the other way: you officially become the ERE, the strongest one since 1204 and make life difficult or anyone around. Also you don't need to answer the pope at all at that point
Constantinople is one of the best fortified places on the planet, easily supplied and reinforced by sea, sits astride one of the most lucrative trade routes in the world and holds huge symbolic significance.
Even in its reduced state, it earned the title of the City of the World's Desire.
Even without being the capital as for a few generations Syracuse will remain more important, the Lascarids could not ask for a better anchor on their eastern frontier.
And with firm control of the sea, it really is not a stretch for Lascarids power projection. Don't underestimate how much easier a dominant fleet makes these things.
Edit: accidentally posted before finishing my thought. 😆
Even in its reduced state, it earned the title of the City of the World's Desire.
Even without being the capital as for a few generations Syracuse will remain more important, the Lascarids could not ask for a better anchor on their eastern frontier.
And with firm control of the sea, it really is not a stretch for Lascarids power projection. Don't underestimate how much easier a dominant fleet makes these things.
Edit: accidentally posted before finishing my thought. 😆
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pls don't ban me
Monthly Donor
i mean, with a strong fleet there is no naval blockade which means that even if you start a siege with cannons you'll not be able to take the city if there is a constant supply of food, soldier and stuff to repair.
also yeah, the walls are old, but if one has the money and takes the city can easily repair and improve said walls or add a third line the Lascarid line( which makes me think about the Attack on titan city ahahhaha)
Edit: witht he genoese as allies you might be even able to negotiate a deal to reinforce the Galata side with better walls and make that access to the port really impossible.
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