The Grand Duchy of the West - A Valois-Burgundian TL
- Thread starter BlueFlowwer
- Start date
Relations IOTL only soured after the 'foreigner' Philip II wanted to centralize things and run everything from El Escorial, Charles V was still very much a Burgundian. It's true, that the Burgundian nobles, which followed Charles V to Spain weren't popular. Under Philip II, the rich Burgundian Lands, even at times unruly with a duke present, realized it was relegated to a Peripheral region, like Naples.
I beg to differ, France was surrounded for a reason, since it is the most populous kingdom of Western Europe and a united France was a threat for Austria-Burgundy, Castille-Aragon and England. With England being the one switching sides once one side became too dominant. A France not being surrounded is a security threat for all their neighbours IMHO there might be more conflicts ITTL than IOTL.
IMHO the division between the Spanish and Austrian could have been better than IOTL. IMHO the Austrian branch probably would have been better off with Burgundy. The only thing, which could have went both ways is the duchy of Milan. Milan would give the Spanish Habsburg monarchs still a stake in the Empire and 'Spain' would be strengthened in the protection of their already existing interests in Italy. France had claims on both Milan and Naples and an axe to grind with Burgundy.
Thank you. These are all true and good points. What I meant was that the different countries could benefit from being apart and having their own rulers focusing on their domains and not being relegated to side regions like Philip and Burgundy.
Yes, that is true about France being a threat as well. But I think that Charles being ruler of the Low Countries, HRE, King of Spain and having a claim to Milan all at the same time did not help either. There will be conflicts a plenty anyways. And the division was a disaster in the long term.
I'm almost done writing my "Disaster Hits England For Four Years Straight" chapter now so I think I shall post it tomorrow evening. Hope you all like a mix of chaos, infidelity and Henry Tudor!
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The Habsburgs inheriting Castille-Aragon was a fluke. Maximilian had made active attempts to get Bohemia and Hungary back eventually for the Habsburgs, for Castille-Aragon an unlikely number of heirs had to die.
Charles V (I know him better as Karel V (he was born in Gent (Ghent/Gand)) with Castille-Aragon, the Burgundian Lands, as the HRE etc. he could just match France, England was the one tipping the balance for Charles V or Francis I. So maybe it didn't help, but I fear the alternative would have been worse (then again as a Brabantian, I'm inclined to see the Burgundian perspective).
I hope you understand my hesitation with the duchy of Milan for a better division than IOTL, the Austria surely wanted it, but Charles V wanted his branch of the family to keep a stake in the Empire, and with the Ottomans at the gates of the Austrian Habsburgs, I doubt they can both keep Burgundy and Milan safe from an expansionist France.
Yes, it was a strange stroke to inherit it all. I understand what you are saying. My TL isn't gonna be overtly filled with peace and prosperity either for the Burgundians with France, but they are gonna survive as a independant duchy.
Well, first the Sforzas could have survived if Francesco II had married earlier and second, if Charles V had NOT given Milan to his son, the Duchy would have likely kept iTS independence under a younger son of Ferdinand I
Way too early for that. Plus you have already butterflied the start of the sequence of events who led to the first French conquest of Milan. And the only men French who have a claim on Milan are the heirs of Valentina Visconti (so OTL Louis XII, his cousin Charles of Angouleme and the latter's son Francis I and if none of them become King Milan is safe). With the OTL italian wars already butterflied the only thing who made Milan unstable is the conflict for the rulership of the Duchy between Ludovico, Duke of Bari, who was ruling the city in name of his incompetent and uninterested nephew and the latter’s wife, Isabella of Aragon-Naples. Gian Galeazzo and Isabella married only in 1488 and their wedding originally was unconsummated for over a years (and Isabella was able to get Gian Galeazzo to consummate the wedding and then became pregnant when her family was close to ask the annulment of the wedding and to get back Isabella). If either Gian Galeazzo and Isabella’s wedding is annulled or their only son died young then the Milanese succession will go uncontested to Ludovico and his sons by Beatrice d’Este, taking away the remaining troubles for the Sforza’s rule on Milan
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I figured as much, but its always interesting to see if anyone has some ideas. So internal strife in the duchy is possible to create? I'll mull over what do to and them pm you about it.
Chapter 9 - England and Burgundy from 1480 - 83
Chapter 9 - England and Burgundy from 1480-84
“It would be an understatement, to say the least, that the year of 1480 would be the start of a four-years tragedy for the House of York. From being one of the most victorious rulers of England, Edward IV was beset by tragedies both politically and dynastically. The man who had crushed the Lancastrians at Barnet and Tewkesbury a decade earlier, who had won his crown at the bloody battle of Towton at 1461, would face a series of losses that would ravage his family and ultimately dying at the age of 40. The golden-haired giant that had claimed the entirety of England when 19 years old, would die a broken, grief-stricken shadow of himself, seeing the destruction of his entire legacy unravel.”
Source: Sunrise, sunset – The House of York, Ian Mortimer.
The Treaty of Arras would become one of the first blows in the twilight years for King Edward IV of England. The marriage of Dauphin Charles of France and Isabella of Burgundy meant that the Treaty of Picquigny had suddenly dissolved. Edward’s pension ended and his daughter Cecily, the future queen of France, had been thrown overboard without as much as a letter from Louis XI. The shame and humiliation for the York family was extreme. Edward’s failure in domestic policy caused the populace to lose faith in their king’s ability and his failure in not supporting his Burgundian nephew more was seen as sheer laziness. His brother, Richard of Gloucester arrived back to England as a hero, seeing as he had slain the Marshal of France personally in combat. But Anne Neville’s death in a premature childbirth in July put a damper on things. Despite that Richard refused to remarry for a few years until the situation forced his hand in 1484. He spent much more time with his two daughters, five-year-old Joan and two year old Eleanor.
In anger, the king recalled the remaining soldiers that Margaret had levied in 1478 to England. Around half of them came back. The return of the archers in the summer of 1480 is considered the trigger for the chain reaction of tragedy for the house of York. Because with them arrived the Sweating Sickness, a plague that struck England particularly hard during the next two years.
Edward’s children with Margaret of Scotland had always suffered from frail health and in February the four-year-old Duke of York became sick with a high fever. The little boy died after two weeks despite the king’s physicians tending to him with every means.
The sickness spread north, claiming several sheriffs along the midlands, both west and east. Another victim was Margaret Beaufort, Lady Stanley. The sweating sickness is credited with stopping the conflict with Scotland that had been built up since 1480. On the Scots side the Duke of Albany, Alexander Stewart, died in the summer of 1482 and it would efficiently void any conflict with England for the time being.
Worse was to come after new year 1482. The sickness gripped London tight and Edward himself got ill by January, scaring the living daylights out of the court. But fortunately, he seemed to recover shortly after. However, his general health deteriorated from this point on. Cecily, now eleven years old resided at court in Westminster when she and her father both became ill, and she would not be as lucky. The princess was sent away to protect her health, but her entourage ended up in the middle of a winter storm on her way to Windsor castle and lost themselves in the snow for nearly a day. The princess finally made it to the castle a few days later, but at that point she had been half frozen and wet. Cecily, already weakened by the sickness, passed away from pneumonia on the first of February.
Tragedy was narrowly averted in April of 1482. Edward, Prince of Wales, seven years old was stationed in Ludlow castle under the care of Anthony Woodville, his father’s late wife’s brother. Ludlow, placed near the river Teme, close to the Welsh marshes had not been struck by the sweating sickness yet. That luck turned in March, infecting the castle the following month. Anthony Woodville died almost immediately, Edward survived his illness, but was left with a very weak heart.
Edward IV could barely keep up with the tragedies that hit from every direction. With only one son living, the pressure of fathering another heir became stronger. His wife had given birth to a fragile daughter, Margaret in 1480, but Edward needed a second son. He now had three living children: Mary, Edward, and Margaret. Despite that Edward tried to make allies with his children. With the French gone and his sister in Burgundy holding together her son’s realm, the necessary foreign allies would make a bulwark towards further disaster.
The Sweating sickness seemed to have vanished for after summer and the remainder of 1482 killed no one of prominence.
His eldest daughter Mary had turned 15 years old in 1482 and now old enough to be sent to the Low Countries to become its future duchess. Philip, being 13, had to wait until April of 1483, when he would turn 14 to be legally wed, but Edward wanted Mary to be acquainted with the duchy until then. His sister pressed hard for Mary to come to court so that her son could see his future wife. Plus, Mary’s dowry had been set at 100,000 crowns and the money would be welcome at the ducal court, as the recent strife with France had left the coffers emptier then usually. Mary left the court in September, crossing the turbulent channel to arrive in Calais and from there on out set out to the city of Bruges where her future husband awaited her. She was escorted by her uncle Richard, the victorious duke who won the Battle of Dóle for his nephew.
Mary of York, Duchess of Burgundy
Mary of York was a very pretty girl, according to those who came to see their future lady when she crossed into the Flemish county. Fair skinned with blond hair and pale blue eyes, she had a heart shaped face and plump lips. The princess was rather short for her age and had a thin body underneath her rich clothes.
To Philippa of Guelders, the future duchess looked like pale and small. Philip had appointed her as Mary’s Dame d'honneur, or principal lady in waiting as Philippa was extremely well acquainted with the ins and outs of the ducal court and considered by many to be the second lady after the dowager duchess. She and her brother Charles close to the young duke, the boys were rarely apart. The tall and darkhaired girl had become widely beloved in the duchy for her charming demeanour, charity, and intelligence.
Philippa of Guelders in 1485
Mary did not make as strong impression on Philip or the court when she arrived in Bruges in late September either. Escorted by her warrior uncle, the girl in purple velvet and cloth of gold made a pretty figure to be sure, but she was painfully shy. Margaret of Scotland had not been a figurehead in female education, and while she had instructed Mary in religious virtues, needlework, and how to manage a household, her education lacked in other areas. Mary spoke French, but not very fluent and despite the long engagement, no attempts had been made to teach her Flemish. Her personal qualities had been lauded as she was gentle and kind, but she lacked wit and confidence. Margaret decided to take her niece under her wing to mould her into a more appropriate duchess and encouraged Philip to spend more time with her so she would become more comfortable with him. While Philip considered Mary pretty, he did not engage with her at long periods and their relationship remained lukewarm.
The marriage took place in early summer in 1483 in Ghent and Philip began treating Mary with more cutesy, especially after June, when bad news arrived from England. Her little sister Margaret died in the Tower of London, after falling down the stairs when playing with a friend one morning. Her nurses had been to late to stop their exuberant game of chase and Margaret, having the clumsy coordination of a toddler, accidentally fell after coming to the end of a corridor. The little girl had not died instantly but died a few hours earlier after collapsing.
The death of another child was a harsh blow to the king and queen and Edward’s condition got even worse. The succession now laid heavier on the shoulders of fragile little Edward, only eight years old and if he were to die, then Mary would become heiress to England. In July the king visited the queens chambers more often, hoping to sire another son and he began to make plans for what would happen if the worst came to pass. Edward sent a speedy messenger to Richard of Gloucester to come to London and he arrived a few weeks later to find a court in crisis. In the presence of his courtiers, the duke were designated Protector of the realm and made guardian for prince Edward. But one glimpse of hope arrived, as queen Margaret announced her pregnancy in late august. She also attempted to convince her husband to make her regent rather than Richard, as she loathed Gloucester. The queen also feared that Mary’s husband would impose his government on England and began to reach out to her brother, James III of Scotland for military support. A secret agreement came about, James would support his sister in an eventual regency in return for getting Berwick, Roxburgh and Coldingham near the border.
Richard of York, Duke of Gloucester
When Margaret’s scheme came to light, the uproar against her was massive. Edward was furious with her and the common folks called her a traitorous whore who conspired for England to be ruled by a foreign king. Margaret also had an unfortunate habit of being coquettish from the start of her marriage in 1470 and it had left her gradually more unpopular as the years went by. Rumours had hovered at the edges for a long time, and they began to increase after 1480 as all her children had turned out to be rather sickly and small. The king was a strong and gigantic warrior, compared to his frail and stunted heirs.
The whispers grew louder with every passing year. Had the succession been hoodwinked? Did England have a legitimate prince? Was Edward IV’s children bastards? His secret marriage to Elizabeth Woodville did not help matters either. Had the Duke of Clarence been executed in 1476 because he learned the truth of Queen Margaret’s infidelity? Has Margaret had a hand in the death of his children with Isabel Neville because she feared the truth?
The Queen was cursed, the whispers said in London 1476 when Clarence had met his fate.
The Queen was cursed, the whispers shouted across the kingdom in 1481 when the Duke of York died.
The Queen was cursed, the whispers bellowed in 1483 from every corner of England in September of 1483.
The queen was cursed and the heirs to St Edward’s Chair were false.
A crisis was imminent. And in the Low Countries, Mary of York announced her pregnancy in October.
The Queen of England was expecting a possibly false heir in May of 1484. The Duchess of Burgundy was expecting a foreign heir in June the same year. Meanwhile, both King and Prince were fading, and the widowed Richard of Gloucester stood in the eye of the storm. It seemed like all of England and the Low Countries held their breath at the end of 1483.
The death of King Louis XI of France in December would also leave France increasingly unsteadied. And another man would wait in the wings for his chance to fulfil the destiny he believed God had intended for him. Henry Tudor was the sole remaining claimant of the vanquished Lancastrians and now a way to the throne was opening for him.
The year of 1484 would become known in England as “The Year of the Three Claimants”.
Author's Note: I'm so sorry you'all.
“It would be an understatement, to say the least, that the year of 1480 would be the start of a four-years tragedy for the House of York. From being one of the most victorious rulers of England, Edward IV was beset by tragedies both politically and dynastically. The man who had crushed the Lancastrians at Barnet and Tewkesbury a decade earlier, who had won his crown at the bloody battle of Towton at 1461, would face a series of losses that would ravage his family and ultimately dying at the age of 40. The golden-haired giant that had claimed the entirety of England when 19 years old, would die a broken, grief-stricken shadow of himself, seeing the destruction of his entire legacy unravel.”
Source: Sunrise, sunset – The House of York, Ian Mortimer.
The Treaty of Arras would become one of the first blows in the twilight years for King Edward IV of England. The marriage of Dauphin Charles of France and Isabella of Burgundy meant that the Treaty of Picquigny had suddenly dissolved. Edward’s pension ended and his daughter Cecily, the future queen of France, had been thrown overboard without as much as a letter from Louis XI. The shame and humiliation for the York family was extreme. Edward’s failure in domestic policy caused the populace to lose faith in their king’s ability and his failure in not supporting his Burgundian nephew more was seen as sheer laziness. His brother, Richard of Gloucester arrived back to England as a hero, seeing as he had slain the Marshal of France personally in combat. But Anne Neville’s death in a premature childbirth in July put a damper on things. Despite that Richard refused to remarry for a few years until the situation forced his hand in 1484. He spent much more time with his two daughters, five-year-old Joan and two year old Eleanor.
In anger, the king recalled the remaining soldiers that Margaret had levied in 1478 to England. Around half of them came back. The return of the archers in the summer of 1480 is considered the trigger for the chain reaction of tragedy for the house of York. Because with them arrived the Sweating Sickness, a plague that struck England particularly hard during the next two years.
Edward’s children with Margaret of Scotland had always suffered from frail health and in February the four-year-old Duke of York became sick with a high fever. The little boy died after two weeks despite the king’s physicians tending to him with every means.
The sickness spread north, claiming several sheriffs along the midlands, both west and east. Another victim was Margaret Beaufort, Lady Stanley. The sweating sickness is credited with stopping the conflict with Scotland that had been built up since 1480. On the Scots side the Duke of Albany, Alexander Stewart, died in the summer of 1482 and it would efficiently void any conflict with England for the time being.
Worse was to come after new year 1482. The sickness gripped London tight and Edward himself got ill by January, scaring the living daylights out of the court. But fortunately, he seemed to recover shortly after. However, his general health deteriorated from this point on. Cecily, now eleven years old resided at court in Westminster when she and her father both became ill, and she would not be as lucky. The princess was sent away to protect her health, but her entourage ended up in the middle of a winter storm on her way to Windsor castle and lost themselves in the snow for nearly a day. The princess finally made it to the castle a few days later, but at that point she had been half frozen and wet. Cecily, already weakened by the sickness, passed away from pneumonia on the first of February.
Tragedy was narrowly averted in April of 1482. Edward, Prince of Wales, seven years old was stationed in Ludlow castle under the care of Anthony Woodville, his father’s late wife’s brother. Ludlow, placed near the river Teme, close to the Welsh marshes had not been struck by the sweating sickness yet. That luck turned in March, infecting the castle the following month. Anthony Woodville died almost immediately, Edward survived his illness, but was left with a very weak heart.
Edward IV could barely keep up with the tragedies that hit from every direction. With only one son living, the pressure of fathering another heir became stronger. His wife had given birth to a fragile daughter, Margaret in 1480, but Edward needed a second son. He now had three living children: Mary, Edward, and Margaret. Despite that Edward tried to make allies with his children. With the French gone and his sister in Burgundy holding together her son’s realm, the necessary foreign allies would make a bulwark towards further disaster.
The Sweating sickness seemed to have vanished for after summer and the remainder of 1482 killed no one of prominence.
His eldest daughter Mary had turned 15 years old in 1482 and now old enough to be sent to the Low Countries to become its future duchess. Philip, being 13, had to wait until April of 1483, when he would turn 14 to be legally wed, but Edward wanted Mary to be acquainted with the duchy until then. His sister pressed hard for Mary to come to court so that her son could see his future wife. Plus, Mary’s dowry had been set at 100,000 crowns and the money would be welcome at the ducal court, as the recent strife with France had left the coffers emptier then usually. Mary left the court in September, crossing the turbulent channel to arrive in Calais and from there on out set out to the city of Bruges where her future husband awaited her. She was escorted by her uncle Richard, the victorious duke who won the Battle of Dóle for his nephew.
Mary of York, Duchess of Burgundy
Mary of York was a very pretty girl, according to those who came to see their future lady when she crossed into the Flemish county. Fair skinned with blond hair and pale blue eyes, she had a heart shaped face and plump lips. The princess was rather short for her age and had a thin body underneath her rich clothes.
To Philippa of Guelders, the future duchess looked like pale and small. Philip had appointed her as Mary’s Dame d'honneur, or principal lady in waiting as Philippa was extremely well acquainted with the ins and outs of the ducal court and considered by many to be the second lady after the dowager duchess. She and her brother Charles close to the young duke, the boys were rarely apart. The tall and darkhaired girl had become widely beloved in the duchy for her charming demeanour, charity, and intelligence.
Philippa of Guelders in 1485
Mary did not make as strong impression on Philip or the court when she arrived in Bruges in late September either. Escorted by her warrior uncle, the girl in purple velvet and cloth of gold made a pretty figure to be sure, but she was painfully shy. Margaret of Scotland had not been a figurehead in female education, and while she had instructed Mary in religious virtues, needlework, and how to manage a household, her education lacked in other areas. Mary spoke French, but not very fluent and despite the long engagement, no attempts had been made to teach her Flemish. Her personal qualities had been lauded as she was gentle and kind, but she lacked wit and confidence. Margaret decided to take her niece under her wing to mould her into a more appropriate duchess and encouraged Philip to spend more time with her so she would become more comfortable with him. While Philip considered Mary pretty, he did not engage with her at long periods and their relationship remained lukewarm.
The marriage took place in early summer in 1483 in Ghent and Philip began treating Mary with more cutesy, especially after June, when bad news arrived from England. Her little sister Margaret died in the Tower of London, after falling down the stairs when playing with a friend one morning. Her nurses had been to late to stop their exuberant game of chase and Margaret, having the clumsy coordination of a toddler, accidentally fell after coming to the end of a corridor. The little girl had not died instantly but died a few hours earlier after collapsing.
The death of another child was a harsh blow to the king and queen and Edward’s condition got even worse. The succession now laid heavier on the shoulders of fragile little Edward, only eight years old and if he were to die, then Mary would become heiress to England. In July the king visited the queens chambers more often, hoping to sire another son and he began to make plans for what would happen if the worst came to pass. Edward sent a speedy messenger to Richard of Gloucester to come to London and he arrived a few weeks later to find a court in crisis. In the presence of his courtiers, the duke were designated Protector of the realm and made guardian for prince Edward. But one glimpse of hope arrived, as queen Margaret announced her pregnancy in late august. She also attempted to convince her husband to make her regent rather than Richard, as she loathed Gloucester. The queen also feared that Mary’s husband would impose his government on England and began to reach out to her brother, James III of Scotland for military support. A secret agreement came about, James would support his sister in an eventual regency in return for getting Berwick, Roxburgh and Coldingham near the border.
Richard of York, Duke of Gloucester
When Margaret’s scheme came to light, the uproar against her was massive. Edward was furious with her and the common folks called her a traitorous whore who conspired for England to be ruled by a foreign king. Margaret also had an unfortunate habit of being coquettish from the start of her marriage in 1470 and it had left her gradually more unpopular as the years went by. Rumours had hovered at the edges for a long time, and they began to increase after 1480 as all her children had turned out to be rather sickly and small. The king was a strong and gigantic warrior, compared to his frail and stunted heirs.
The whispers grew louder with every passing year. Had the succession been hoodwinked? Did England have a legitimate prince? Was Edward IV’s children bastards? His secret marriage to Elizabeth Woodville did not help matters either. Had the Duke of Clarence been executed in 1476 because he learned the truth of Queen Margaret’s infidelity? Has Margaret had a hand in the death of his children with Isabel Neville because she feared the truth?
The Queen was cursed, the whispers said in London 1476 when Clarence had met his fate.
The Queen was cursed, the whispers shouted across the kingdom in 1481 when the Duke of York died.
The Queen was cursed, the whispers bellowed in 1483 from every corner of England in September of 1483.
The queen was cursed and the heirs to St Edward’s Chair were false.
A crisis was imminent. And in the Low Countries, Mary of York announced her pregnancy in October.
The Queen of England was expecting a possibly false heir in May of 1484. The Duchess of Burgundy was expecting a foreign heir in June the same year. Meanwhile, both King and Prince were fading, and the widowed Richard of Gloucester stood in the eye of the storm. It seemed like all of England and the Low Countries held their breath at the end of 1483.
The death of King Louis XI of France in December would also leave France increasingly unsteadied. And another man would wait in the wings for his chance to fulfil the destiny he believed God had intended for him. Henry Tudor was the sole remaining claimant of the vanquished Lancastrians and now a way to the throne was opening for him.
The year of 1484 would become known in England as “The Year of the Three Claimants”.
Author's Note: I'm so sorry you'all.
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Yes, they are in a rather bad shape right now. Not helped by the scheming tudors either!
My forshadowing level is rather good, right?
It would be a great potential for a Prince who would inherit both the Low Countries and England. It's almost like a Miguel da Paz scenario.