The Imperial Netherlands
- Thread starter isabella
- Start date
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Isabella Clara Eugenia, Sovereign of the Netherlands (b. 1566) married Albert II, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1559) in 1599
Philip III of Spain (b. 1578) married Margaret of Inner-Austria (b. 1584) in 1599
- Maximilian III, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1602) married Anna Maria Mauricia of Spain (b. 1601)
- Albert Ernest, Count of Tyrol (b. 1604) married ?
- Elizabeth (b. 1605) married Charles I, King of England (b. 1600)
- Anna (b. 1607) married ?
Philip III of Spain (b. 1578) married Margaret of Inner-Austria (b. 1584) in 1599
- Anna Maria Mauricia (b. 1601) married Maximilian III, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1602)
- Maria (1603)
- Philip IV, King of Spain (b. 1605) married Elizabeth of France (b. 1602)
- Maria Anna (b. 1606) married Louis XIII, King of France (b. 1601)
- Charles (1607-1632)
- Ferdinand (b. 1609), Cardinal
- Margaret (1610-1617)
- Alphonse Maurice (1611-1612)
- Louis XIII, King of France (b. 1601) married Maria Anna of Austria-Spain (b. 1606)
- Elizabeth (b. 1602) married Philip IV, King of Spain (b. 1605)
- Christine Marie (b. 1606) married Victor Amadeus I, Duke of Savoy (b. 1587)
- Nicholas Henry, Duke d’Orleans (1607-1611)
- Gaston John Baptist, Duke of Orleans (previously Anjou) (b. 1608) married Marie, Duchess of Montpensier (b. 1605)
- Henrietta Maria (b. 1609) married Nicholas II, Duke of Lorraine (b. 1608) *
NOTES
Albert and Isabella Clara Eugenia having children (and most specifically sons) who reached adulthood is one of the biggest game changer for the Habsburg post Charles V as their son would be heir not only of the Burgundian lands but also of the Empire considering who none of Albert‘s brothers had children. Albert’s son as male line heir of the senior Imperial branch of the Habsburg would prevent all the OTL conflicts between Philip III of Spain and OTL Ferdinand II as he would be the indisputable heir of Austria, Hungary and Bohemia unlike OTL were Philip tried to use the fact who his mother was Maximilian II‘s eldest daughter and only child to leave heirs for getting advantages/compensations from Ferdinand II, who included territorial swaps and similar. Here Philip III has no leverage on Albert and has lost the Netherlands in fa our of the Imperal branch and so he can only use the wedding contract of Isabella and Albert for securing the marriage of young Maximilian to his own eldest daughter (meaning who France need to be contented with the second as Philip can not break Anne’s engagement or swap her with her younger sister for marrying Anne to Louis XIII. Hopefully Louis XIII here will find Maria Anna more of his liking than her sister was in OTL and they will have an happier wedding). James I in OTL wanted a Spanish match for his heir but I believe who here the existence of an Archduchess in the Netherlands who is also niece of the King of Spain will push him to try to find a daughter-in-law among Albert‘s children instead of trying to get a Spanish infanta… Charles I marrying a daughter of Albert naturally mean who Henrietta need a different husband and considering who I wanted already give a son to Henry II of Lorraine and Nicole was both born after the POD and a year older than Henrietta the easiest solution was having a Nicholas born in her place and marry him to Henrietta
Albert and Isabella Clara Eugenia having children (and most specifically sons) who reached adulthood is one of the biggest game changer for the Habsburg post Charles V as their son would be heir not only of the Burgundian lands but also of the Empire considering who none of Albert‘s brothers had children. Albert’s son as male line heir of the senior Imperial branch of the Habsburg would prevent all the OTL conflicts between Philip III of Spain and OTL Ferdinand II as he would be the indisputable heir of Austria, Hungary and Bohemia unlike OTL were Philip tried to use the fact who his mother was Maximilian II‘s eldest daughter and only child to leave heirs for getting advantages/compensations from Ferdinand II, who included territorial swaps and similar. Here Philip III has no leverage on Albert and has lost the Netherlands in fa our of the Imperal branch and so he can only use the wedding contract of Isabella and Albert for securing the marriage of young Maximilian to his own eldest daughter (meaning who France need to be contented with the second as Philip can not break Anne’s engagement or swap her with her younger sister for marrying Anne to Louis XIII. Hopefully Louis XIII here will find Maria Anna more of his liking than her sister was in OTL and they will have an happier wedding). James I in OTL wanted a Spanish match for his heir but I believe who here the existence of an Archduchess in the Netherlands who is also niece of the King of Spain will push him to try to find a daughter-in-law among Albert‘s children instead of trying to get a Spanish infanta… Charles I marrying a daughter of Albert naturally mean who Henrietta need a different husband and considering who I wanted already give a son to Henry II of Lorraine and Nicole was both born after the POD and a year older than Henrietta the easiest solution was having a Nicholas born in her place and marry him to Henrietta
Albert and Isabella made a precise choice to use only names from his branch of the family and to not use Philip as he was quite unpopular in the Netherlands... If you wish you can think to Philip as second name of MaximilIan III…
Wouldn't it be possible for Maximilian III to marry Elizabeth of France instead of Philip IV of Spain? The Imperial branch has become slightly more important, also for France. Still probably offering Christine Marie instead to Felipe IV, might be seen as insulting and only postpones the Habsburg problem (too many marriage candidates of rank, have converted away from Roman Catholicism to Protestantism.
No way who Spain would allow that match to go on. Anna was more or less engaged to Maximilian (or at least earmarked for him) since his birth and that engagement is something who the King of Spain would NOT touch for any reason (as they would likely not be able to use again Albert and Isabella’s wedding contract for choosing MaximilIan’s bride once he is clearly the heir of the Empire). Do not worry who Maximilian’s son will marry outside the Habsburgs (likely a princess of Lorraine or an italian girl)
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Pretty unlikely on the part of France. Even with the Netherlands passing to the Imperial branch, Spain remains the real threat. After all, it would be Spanish gold funding an invasion from Flanders, so an understanding with Madrid could be the difference between war and peace. Moreover, Spain would still remain the more powerful and prestigious of the two branches.
I understand the position of Spain. Still Anna was earmarked and it's not sure whether Infanta Anna or archduke Maximilian will reach adulthood. And a Spanish match is not bad, neither the Spanish nor the Austrian Habsburgs were concerned about inbreeding, that arguably only came later in the 17th century (when both were too late).
Still once Albrecht and Isabella are Emperor and Empress, they are in a position to change things in the deal more in their favour.
Wouldn't a Bavarian princess (technically duchess) be preferred over a Lorraine or Italian match. OTOH ties between the Austrian Habsburgs and the Bavarian Wittelsbachs are about as close as the one the Austrian Habsburgs had with their Spanish cousins. Even a French match could be in the cards, especially once the Austrian Habsburgs manage to reconquer those parts of the kingdom of Hungary occupied by the Ottoman Empire. Sure even then they would only fortify their position of the third Catholic Great Power, however at the same time making the lesser Catholic powers even less attractive.
Too bad for the Austrian Habsburgs that the Polish Jagiellons died out, otherwise they could have been for them what the French Valois and later Bourbons were for the Spanish branch.
More likely their control over Burgundy would be complete and obviously Madrid can not dictate the matrimonial policy of the Imperial family so that part of the contract would be annulled. Still Spain would get back that lands if Albert and Isabella’s line died…
No as ATL the Austrian Habsburg have also the Burgundian lands meaning who Lorraine is in the heart of their holdings and a match there is the most useful and Savoy also would be more valuable than Bavaria. The French match would be to a first cousin (and that if France had a princess of the right age available) but still both Lorraine and Savoy can be also French proxies as they are Louis XIII’s nieces, being daughters of his sisters
That is not a great example, plus French matches in the end were not so useful for the Spanish Habsburg as they had not generated any surviving son.
Define line dying out, there were Austrian branches and the last archduchess of the branch started by Albrecht and Isabella might very well be married to someone from the Tyrolean or Inner Austrian branch. With the real possibility Madrid doesn't want the region back by that point, a deal, which might be sealed with new marriage between the two branches.
Still Bavaria has a slightly higher standing, especially once they become Prince-Electors, than Lorraine or Savoy, not to mention lesser often parvenu Italian dynasties. Both can be strategic both are not as prestigious as a Spanish or French match, in that sense a French proxy could work. That also might depend on the situation in France, if there is an available French princess. Not impossible to end in Savoy, Lorraine or if everything fails Bavaria, but Vienna-Brussels will naturally also look at Paris and Madrid, which were more their equals than Savoy, Bavaria or Lorraine.
I meant it in a geopolitical sense, in that way the role would have been similar. It's also bizarre none of the matches between the Spanish Habsburgs and the reigning Capetian house (Valois or Bourbon) resulted in a son.
The whole line of their descendants, the Netherlands were under male preference primogeniture so a girl would inherit,
True who they could look also to Paris or Madrid, but Maximilian’s son will NOT marry in either as I do not want a first cousin for him and less his bride is related to him better fir the dynasty (reason for which I want a daughter of Nicholas and Henrietta for him)
Maybe they could have, considering how much Polish queens had been Austrian… And yes, a lot of bad luck for the Spanish/French match (if you think who in three matches the only boys who lived enough to marry were both sons of the French King while their Spanish cousin died before marrying)
The 30 years war is butterflied as Ferdinand II would NOT become Emperor here, as Matthias‘s successor would be first Albert and then the latter’s eldest son. The 80 years war will be surely altered by the existence of Isabella’s children (and that could potentially change a lot of things for the Dutch state). I have no idea about the truce, likely things there would go differently than OTL as the survival of an independent Netherlands is almost guaranteed by the birth of 4 heirs who would prevent its reunion with Spain
Okay, so first question is: when do the Albertine Netherlands become separated from the Spanish empire? Is that when the first heir ascends the throne (as Duke of Burgundy/Brabant?)?
As soon Isabella and Albert get them and actually have living children making clear who Spain will not get back the Netherlands… then Matthias not having children would bring back Albert to be fully invested in the matters related to his branch of the family as he would most likely become Emperor after Matthias (true who Maximilian was older but he was also a religious and so childless while Albert here has two sons), paving way to his eventual election as King of the Romans in 1518.
Albrecht was in line to inherit the archduchy of Austria proper, and as the senior line would also have been the next king of Hungary (& Croatia) and Bohemia, and also Holy Roman Emperor. IOTL he declined, because he was becoming ill and had no sons to succeed him in the Empire (nor a daughter, who could have inherited the Burgundian Lands, but not the Austrian Lands). ITTL he has heirs of his own, so de facto independence will be when Albrecht becomes Emperor, formally it would happen, after Albrecht is succeeded by his son.
I'm really curious how the dynamic of the 80-years war will change. The Republic is officially at war with Spain, at what point does it become a war against the Albertines? And does that stop the war with Spain but start a war with Austria? Does Albert still hold to the claims to the North?
If the separation starts in 1605 this predates Spinoza's succesfull campaign of that year, which was an important impetus for the Twelve Year Truce. How is Albert going to pay for an army to withstand the Republic, I assume he will need an Austrian army to replace the Spanish.
If the separation starts in 1605 this predates Spinoza's succesfull campaign of that year, which was an important impetus for the Twelve Year Truce. How is Albert going to pay for an army to withstand the Republic, I assume he will need an Austrian army to replace the Spanish.