Top Twenty Pre-20th Century Commanders?

Brunaburh

Banned
Wellington

In Britain he is considered the greatest land commander we have ever had, though he is behind Nelson and Drake overall. His competitors for top Brit on land would be Marlborough, Edward I, the Black Prince, William the Bastard, the Bruce, Aurelius Ambrosius, Henry V, Simon de Monfort, Montgomery, Wolfe, Clive, Owen Glendower.

The fact our naval commanders outrank our land generals after the Medieval period says a lot about our history.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Obviously pre-20th century was QUITE long and the world is big - so I will work backwards from today, for my own country

I would nominate for Britain, Marlborough and this guy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garnet_Wolseley,_1st_Viscount_Wolseley

For England, I have been reading a lot about the Elizabethans but its curious because in many ways its VERY individual, the stand-out commander is someone who can shake the various independent captains (sea or land) into a coherent larger force. Lord Admiral Howard, maybe.

Going into medieval times, then John Talbot, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury certainly qualifies, as would Edward the Black Prince, and Richard the Lionheart

Going into pre-Norman times - can one say who of Edmund (II) Ironside or Canute was the better?

Was Alfred a great military commander, or a great mlitary survivor? Was he more the politican behind the war in his victorious times, and the warrior prince in his survivalist years?
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
In Britain he is considered the greatest land commander we have ever had, though he is behind Nelson and Drake overall. His competitors for top Brit on land would be Marlborough, Edward I, the Black Prince, William the Bastard, the Bruce, Aurelius Ambrosius, Henry V, Simon de Monfort, Montgomery, Wolfe, Clive, Owen Glendower.

The fact our naval commanders outrank our land generals after the Medieval period says a lot about our history.

I don't rank him above Marlborough or Wolseley

But obviously he was QUITE GOOD

I love Wolfe but he won one campaign, by winning one battle (that was not necessarily his idea) and he died. He stands out cos of heroic victory or victorious heroism but he does not have the sort of long-term record that Talbot or the Black Prince had

As for the naval commanders, well except when we are looking at pre-unity or civil war, then our land commanders made their names overseas in what are essentially offensive roles (even if in the ways of state they defend the state) whereas the naval commanders had that last defensive role in the curtain of the country. Whatever their offensive successes, people like Drake, Hawkins, Howard earned their illustrious name through defending these islands from outside threat
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Also, someone I found out just now: Louis Nicolas Davout, best napoleonic commander. Somebody already cited him, but let's say something more about this man.
...
And Waterloo? He was not here, Napoleon had made him Minister of War, so he left him in Paris. Don't know if he would have changed something, but remember that Wellington was a master at countering french tattics, which Davout was not attached to (the bypass was is creed).

The best Napoleonic commander IMHO, and I honestly think that giving him an army in 1815 could have turned things AS LONG AS someone else competent took over the commisariat role. AFAIK Davout made sure that the armies got guns, supplies, men etc - if someone else could have been found able to do this (and in 1815 it was a Hellish feat) then Davout at Waterloo might have made a difference.

Then again, if Berthier had been alive to have been at Waterloo it also could have been different
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Cyrus the Great,
Lautaro he take his Stone age culture to Fight the Spanish to the Standstill and make them fight a defensive war, during a mayor Typhus, drought and Famine Outbreak on their lands.
Toyotomi Hideyoshi

I´m appalled on how eurocentric the list goes

Really? People answer what they know about

If they have to feel they need to go "get" a non-European then you are into the "who have I heard of" or "let's look this up on Wiki" list

Non-European, let me see :-

Genghis Khan, since underestimating his achievements is insanity
Admiral Togo, of TsuShima fame
Robert Clive - well he was European but he won Britain an empire in India
Sargon II
Philip Kearny
 
Really? People answer what they know about

If they have to feel they need to go "get" a non-European then you are into the "who have I heard of" or "let's look this up on Wiki" list

Non-European, let me see :-

Genghis Khan, since underestimating his achievements is insanity
Admiral Togo, of TsuShima fame
Robert Clive - well he was European but he won Britain an empire in India
Sargon II
Philip Kearny
Don't think Togo would qualify, Russo Japanese War was a 20th century conflict.
 
In Britain he is considered the greatest land commander we have ever had, though he is behind Nelson and Drake overall. His competitors for top Brit on land would be Marlborough, Edward I, the Black Prince, William the Bastard, the Bruce, Aurelius Ambrosius, Henry V, Simon de Monfort, Montgomery, Wolfe, Clive, Owen Glendower.

The fact our naval commanders outrank our land generals after the Medieval period says a lot about our history.
To be fair to the land commanders as an island nation a strong navy is extremely important! I agree that he is the greatest land commander with Marlborough very closely behind but I would have to say personally he outranks Nelson and Drake if there was to be a list! I'd be intrigued to put together a list though because I feel like it would definitely be extremely difficult!
 
The best Napoleonic commander IMHO, and I honestly think that giving him an army in 1815 could have turned things AS LONG AS someone else competent took over the commisariat role. AFAIK Davout made sure that the armies got guns, supplies, men etc - if someone else could have been found able to do this (and in 1815 it was a Hellish feat) then Davout at Waterloo might have made a difference.

Then again, if Berthier had been alive to have been at Waterloo it also could have been different
If Berthier was still alive then it would have been very interesting to see the outcome at Waterloo. Soult took over as Chief of Staff and Napoleon actually said at one point after Soult sent an officer to recall Marshall Grouchy from his attack on the Prussians that if Berthier were alive he would have sent twenty. Ultimately the fact Grouchy along with his 33,000 troops did nothing for the entirety of the battle was a major factor in the Allied victory. But I don't think that Davout would have made a difference at Waterloo. Napoleon much like Wellington kept an extremely tight rein on his Marshalls and didn't usually allow them to have autonomy so he still would have been fighting under Napoleon's strict orders. I personally believe it was Napoleon's reluctance to use the Imperial Guard and the fact the farms of Hougoumont and la Haye Sainte weren't subjected to artillery fire, therefore, they held out much longer than he expected, which lost Napoleon the battle.
 
I've seen quite a few of these debates online and Alexander the Great is usually occupying the top spot. However, I really don't believe he deserves to be there. His new modern professional army was built and blooded by his father's campaigns against the Greeks and Illyrians. I don't think anyone can argue that a major factor in his victories was his army and the technology they deployed against an old, outdated Persian Empire. Mix in the fact he had some of the greatest generals to grace the Ancient world in Craterus, Antipater, Perdiccas, Ptolemy, Lysimachus, Peucestas, Peithon, Leonnatus, Antigonus, Nicator just to name a few his achievements are no longer his alone to claim. His campaign in India and the Hindu Kush was in many ways successful but it was a bit of a shambles really and finally, the treatment of his troops and the disdain he had for them for me makes me question his number one spot. I personally think he gets credit for a lot of other peoples work especially his father Phillip of Macedon who doesn't get enough credit. Interestingly I have found a slight parallel in Caesars life in regard to the modernisation of the Roman army by Gauis Marius and again he was lucky to have a handful of extremely competent generals alongside himself.
 
I've seen quite a few of these debates online and Alexander the Great is usually occupying the top spot. However, I really don't believe he deserves to be there. His new modern professional army was built and blooded by his father's campaigns against the Greeks and Illyrians. I don't think anyone can argue that a major factor in his victories was his army and the technology they deployed against an old, outdated Persian Empire. Mix in the fact he had some of the greatest generals to grace the Ancient world in Craterus, Antipater, Perdiccas, Ptolemy, Lysimachus, Peucestas, Peithon, Leonnatus, Antigonus, Nicator just to name a few his achievements are no longer his alone to claim. His campaign in India and the Hindu Kush was in many ways successful but it was a bit of a shambles really and finally, the treatment of his troops and the disdain he had for them for me makes me question his number one spot. I personally think he gets credit for a lot of other peoples work especially his father Phillip of Macedon who doesn't get enough credit. Interestingly I have found a slight parallel in Caesars life in regard to the modernisation of the Roman army by Gauis Marius and again he was lucky to have a handful of extremely competent generals alongside himself.

Philip of Macedon gets almost universal credit for his (extremely murky, not well documented) reforms from educated people; it's just Alexander's internet naysayers that claim he doesn't. That said, I'll point out that only the Macedonian pike phalanx belongs to Philip, and that was numerically a small portion of his army, less than a fifth. The vast majority were untrained citizen militia, an eclectic grab bag of mercenaries, and quasi feudal noble horsemen. The same can be said of the Persian armies he fought, except their militias tended to be more accepting of military discipline than the Greeks. Moreover, his able subordinates (greatest generals to grace the ancient world has to be hyperbole) in no way detracts from his accomplishments; I challenge you to find any great commander who didn't have them. The responsibility laid on the supreme commander is of an altogether different order than the subordinate, and unfortunately it is all too common for men who have proven heroic in lower echelons to lose their edge under greater responsibility.

Unrelated, but '''''''''Marian Reforms(TM)''''''''' are Fake News.
 
Philip of Macedon gets almost universal credit for his (extremely murky, not well documented) reforms from educated people; it's just Alexander's internet naysayers that claim he doesn't. That said, I'll point out that only the Macedonian pike phalanx belongs to Philip, and that was numerically a small portion of his army, less than a fifth. The vast majority were untrained citizen militia, an eclectic grab bag of mercenaries, and quasi feudal noble horsemen. The same can be said of the Persian armies he fought, except their militias tended to be more accepting of military discipline than the Greeks. Moreover, his able subordinates (greatest generals to grace the ancient world has to be hyperbole) in no way detracts from his accomplishments; I challenge you to find any great commander who didn't have them. The responsibility laid on the supreme commander is of an altogether different order than the subordinate, and unfortunately it is all too common for men who have proven heroic in lower echelons to lose their edge under greater responsibility.

Unrelated, but '''''''''Marian Reforms(TM)''''''''' are Fake News.
I just think Phillip deserves a lot more credit for the 'unification' (a very loose term) of Greece, Macedon, Illyria, Dacia etc. I agree about the phalanx but it was the bed rock that the army was built on! I agree it was definitely hyperbole however as the Wars of the Diadochi proved they were I would say more than just able subordinates. I would also say that yes obviously every great general has some 'able subordinates' however I would argue that most of them did not rely as much on them as Alexander did.

What do you mean when you say the Marian Reforms are Fake News?
 
I just think Phillip deserves a lot more credit for the 'unification' (a very loose term) of Greece, Macedon, Illyria, Dacia etc. I agree about the phalanx but it was the bed rock that the army was built on! I agree it was definitely hyperbole however as the Wars of the Diadochi proved they were I would say more than just able subordinates. I would also say that yes obviously every great general has some 'able subordinates' however I would argue that most of them did not rely as much on them as Alexander did.

What do you mean when you say the Marian Reforms are Fake News?
Marius didn't actually reform anything. We only have two textual sources on the supposed reforms, Livy and Sallust; all they mention is that he took volunteers for his African campaign without regard for the Servilian classes. It's not described as a permanent institutional change, and up to that points the property requirement had already been cut down to the point of meaninglessness. There's nothing in there about making a professional army, or providing weapons training, or equipping them by the state, or providing land for retired soldiers. Caesar's legions were not professional soldiers in a standing army; his army was raised for his governorship, according to the system Sulla set up of proconsular governorships.

Should also point out that Philip's unification of Greece didn't survive his death; Greece and Illyria both immediately revolted upon his assassination, so Alexander had to subjugate them again. Plus, Alexander continued to improve on the phalanx his father built, reorganizing his phalanx into chiliarchies and his cavalry into hipparchies, deepening the spirit of competition among his officers by ranking them in valor from first to eighth, and so pushing them to ever greater deeds.
 
I'm wondering if Joan of Arc, if she doesn't
deserve all-out inclusion, doesn't @ least de-
serve honorable mention. Granted, her career was short(one year). She may not have commanded the French armies in the
conventional sense(recently, some historians
have gone so far as to claim that all she was
was a cheerleader). Yet before she appeared
on the scene the English were poised to win
the HYW. With her, the French relieved the
English seige of a key city(Orleans), won a
victory @ Patay that was almost as over-
whelming as the English triumph earlier @
Agincourt, & got their previously uncrowned
Dauphin crowned King. Could all this have been just a coincidence? I don't think so. After Joan's departure the HYW continued to go all France's way, until they finally succeeded in altogether kicking the English out of France in 1452. I'm not saying Joan did all this by herself- but I think her contribution to the final outcome was by no means insignificant either.
 
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Marius didn't actually reform anything. We only have two textual sources on the supposed reforms, Livy and Sallust; all they mention is that he took volunteers for his African campaign without regard for the Servilian classes. It's not described as a permanent institutional change, and up to that points the property requirement had already been cut down to the point of meaninglessness. There's nothing in there about making a professional army, or providing weapons training, or equipping them by the state, or providing land for retired soldiers. Caesar's legions were not professional soldiers in a standing army; his army was raised for his governorship, according to the system Sulla set up of proconsular governorships.

Should also point out that Philip's unification of Greece didn't survive his death; Greece and Illyria both immediately revolted upon his assassination, so Alexander had to subjugate them again. Plus, Alexander continued to improve on the phalanx his father built, reorganizing his phalanx into chiliarchies and his cavalry into hipparchies, deepening the spirit of competition among his officers by ranking them in valor from first to eighth, and so pushing them to ever greater deeds.
That's quite interesting actually! From what I have read I thought the general consensus was that the reorganisation of the Roman army was due to Marius. If you look at the way the Roman army is described by Polybuis and then the way it is described by sources around the time of Julius Caesar (Caesar is himself a great source) there are significant changes in the army. I had always attributed these changes to Marius. There is some evidence to suggest he altered the eligibility criterion though if I remember correctly I think Plutarch wrote something it.

He did subjugate them but they revolted again after his death in the Lamian War so it was never going to be a complete subjugation.
 
That's quite interesting actually! From what I have read I thought the general consensus was that the reorganisation of the Roman army was due to Marius. If you look at the way the Roman army is described by Polybuis and then the way it is described by sources around the time of Julius Caesar (Caesar is himself a great source) there are significant changes in the army. I had always attributed these changes to Marius. There is some evidence to suggest he altered the eligibility criterion though if I remember correctly I think Plutarch wrote something it.
........... yeah i meant Plutarch not Livy. All Plutarch said was that we was admitting volunteers without regard for the property classes.

Yes, there are significant changes in the way the Roman army operates between Polybios and Caesar, but the textual evidence to attribute it all to Marius just isn't there. IMO, the fallout of the Social War with universal Italian citizenship and Sulla's establishment of provincial armies were more important to the development, but really it's not until the reign of Augustus and the permanent frontier garrisons that we actually get the professional Roman army everyone loves. Classicists by and large don't talk about Marian reforms; a few military historians and enthusiasts still use it, but specialists have largely abandoned it.
 
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