As the title says what if the Magyars and Seljuks swapped places of settlement. How does the world as we change.
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What if Magyars settled in Anatolia and The Seljuks in Pannonia
- Thread starter EmperorSimeon
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There's a very good Maps & Graphics TL where one of the big changes is that the Magyars settle in Anatolia. The name is on the tip of my tongue right now. Something about an alternate fall of Rome I think.
Seljuks?
A Turkic group that was converted to Islam that led to the conquest of Persia and was known for powerful victories against the Eastern Romans or the Byzantines in the Battle of Manzikert as well as subsequent raids that led to a gradual collapse of Byzantine control in the Anatolia.
The best PoD is the Magyar tribes not migrating westward, likely going to the OTL Southern Ukraine but to migrate up to the Caucasus Mountains or parts of Central Asia, creating conditions where the Magyars would be split into two with the OTL ones will be migrated on the same path but more likely to be dispersed or assimilated and those who were migrated either to the same two mentioned regions will allow creating perfect conditions for the alt-Magyars to become allies with the Turkic tribe before expanding into Persia and the Mesopotamia by the conquest of the Abbasid Caliphate and to allow for them to take advantage of the deteriorating situation in the Byzantine Empire for their forces to launch raids before taking huge numbers of the sizeable army to battle with the Byzantine forces, which would end in costing and consequential victory for the alt-Magyars before settling down in Central Anatolia.
Magyars come into Europe like otl but migrate further south, then cross into Asia Minor, either taking or bypassing Constantinople. Somehow become the dominant culture in Asia Minor. Like the Celts 700 years earlier but stronger.
This disrupts Sassanid dissolution of their strength in wars with the Byzantine and butterflies Islam as well as the Byzantines as we know them.
Whomever is in Persia when the Seljuks come are stronger, and they deflect them North into Europe where they settle in modern Hungry.
This disrupts Sassanid dissolution of their strength in wars with the Byzantine and butterflies Islam as well as the Byzantines as we know them.
Whomever is in Persia when the Seljuks come are stronger, and they deflect them North into Europe where they settle in modern Hungry.
I think the easiest way is to reverse the migration patterns of Magyars and Turks with a early enough POD (most likely somehwere in the 7th century), because otherwise, the Magyars would have to go through either the Caucasus or Constantinople to get to Anatolia, which would be harder than getting in through the east.
So, have the Magyars move south towards Iran instead of west when they get close to the Volga and have the Oghuz Turks (who the Seljuks originated from) keep moving west instead of going south.
So, have the Magyars move south towards Iran instead of west when they get close to the Volga and have the Oghuz Turks (who the Seljuks originated from) keep moving west instead of going south.
I don't think Seljuks could successfully settle Panonnia mimicking what Magyars did. Panonnian Germans and Slavs will have roughly 200 years to consolidate their settlement and population centres. By the time of the Seljuk invasion, I cannot see a successful settlement of a nomad confederacy across the Carpathians.
The Caucasus is fine having them conquer lazica and Armenia then AnatoliaI think the easiest way is to reverse the migration patterns of Magyars and Turks with a early enough POD (most likely somehwere in the 7th century), because otherwise, the Magyars would have to go through either the Caucasus or Constantinople to get to Anatolia, which would be harder than getting in through the east.
So, have the Magyars move south towards Iran instead of west when they get close to the Volga and have the Oghuz Turks (who the Seljuks originated from) keep moving west instead of going south.
In terms of the Magyars, they were kicked west initially around 850 AD. Some apparently did go to Persia then. Maybe we could have them decide to go there in-mass. . The Anarchy at Samarra starts soon, maybe they take advantage of that to secure Greater Azerbaijan. Then eventually get pushed west.
Seljuk timeframe isn't necessarily that bad actually for Pannonia. The Bulgars are dealing with a certain Bulgar-slayer which means their grip over eastern Pannonia will be weak (their territories north of the Danube seem to have been generally secondary at the best of times). Also likely cut off from Pannonia by the Pechenegs by now. Germans are far from invincible and rather busy as the successful Slavic revolt in 983 and Italian troubles show. The problem more though is the fundamental difference between them. The Magyars are a tribal people migrating. The Seljuks are a war band/mercenary group (which then snowballs with success). The opportunities in 10th century Europe frankly suck compared to the Middle East. I suppose maybe you could have Seljuks hired by Basil for his Bulgarian campaigns, Seljuk eventually has falling out and withdraws into Wallachia which is probably Pecheneg-dominated, but not really settled per se by them at this point. They take this amiss and he heads over the Carpathian Mountains. I doubt it has as much demographic impact though. I would guess he largely draws his manpower from the Khazars which will basically be cut off at this point. Also the Avars will be long-diminished by the Slavs at this point. Looking at the settlement patterns of Hungarians and Avars, which largely overlap, the latter must have largely assimilated to the former.
Seljuk timeframe isn't necessarily that bad actually for Pannonia. The Bulgars are dealing with a certain Bulgar-slayer which means their grip over eastern Pannonia will be weak (their territories north of the Danube seem to have been generally secondary at the best of times). Also likely cut off from Pannonia by the Pechenegs by now. Germans are far from invincible and rather busy as the successful Slavic revolt in 983 and Italian troubles show. The problem more though is the fundamental difference between them. The Magyars are a tribal people migrating. The Seljuks are a war band/mercenary group (which then snowballs with success). The opportunities in 10th century Europe frankly suck compared to the Middle East. I suppose maybe you could have Seljuks hired by Basil for his Bulgarian campaigns, Seljuk eventually has falling out and withdraws into Wallachia which is probably Pecheneg-dominated, but not really settled per se by them at this point. They take this amiss and he heads over the Carpathian Mountains. I doubt it has as much demographic impact though. I would guess he largely draws his manpower from the Khazars which will basically be cut off at this point. Also the Avars will be long-diminished by the Slavs at this point. Looking at the settlement patterns of Hungarians and Avars, which largely overlap, the latter must have largely assimilated to the former.
Tho the problem is in the Seljuk timeframe, Pannonia would look drastically different than it looked in Magyar one, for one, population growth kept as IOTL would mean than there are considerably more Slavs than they were in the times of Magyar invasion, for second, there are more strong states that there were during Magyar invasion times, Great Moravia is probably more stable than it was IOTL (additional 100 years of existing will help it), and Premyslid duchy in Bohemia is much stronger than it was during IOTL Magyar invasion, and IOTL during Magyar invasion there was no serious polity north of Carpathians, ITTL in 983 Mieszko I reigns in Poland and he would be more than happy to stir up trouble and he would have quite strong state to do so.
And Seljuks being, as you said "war band/mercenary group" increases the likelihood of them assimilating into general Slavic populace (which should be more numerous than it was IOTL during Magyar invasions), because they would be less numerous than Magyars, most likely.
Best case scenario for them is carving out a kingdom and assimilating into local Slavs, like Bulgars (it'd be quite interesting to get Slavic nation to call themselves Turks, "Kingdom of Turkija" could be the name they would use to describe themselves).
Hey i made that. Too be honest there wasnt a true POD for the switch, just rule of cool and motions in the Steppe zone forcing peoples in differing direction.
I'm sorry to be that guy, but do you have anything in the works for that TL?
Ive been cooking some stuff up on paint.net but ive been ridiculously busy lately with added creativity block so no maps fully finished rn.
Honestly the idea of Magyar Anatolia and Turkish Hungary are pretty interesting, through I suspect it’s hard, if we look at the two people migration routes, they‘re pretty different. The closest linguist relatives of the Turks are Azeri and Turkmen, which show their migration route into Turkey, while the Magyar homeland lay around the Ural mountains.