What if Mussolini invaded Yugoslavia in October 1940 instead of Greece?

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
What if Mussolini invaded Yugoslavia at the end of October1940 instead of Greece? Let's assume that any of the build-up of forces, and build up of tensions or demands that occurred vis-a-vis Greece in earlier October and possibly September is directed toward Yugoslavia rather than Greece, for the most part.

Mussolini's motive, like in the OTL Greek case, is to make a strong move to assert Italian influence in the Balkans, especially after the German move to change Romania's borders and send troops there without consulting the Italians or their interests. He simply uses Yugoslavia as the stage to make a show, rather than Greece.

Instead of just attacking the target from Albania, as in the Greek case, the Italians also attack the Yugoslavs out of Venetia and Istria. They also employ their navy and air force in supporting landings and bombardments in Dalmatia in support of the ground prongs.

The Italians might have had plans of longer-standing and greater detail for Yugoslavia than for Greece. Whether that helps Italy is hard to say.

The broad front of attack should be helpful to the Italians, but Yugoslavia is a larger opponent, capable of fielding a larger army than Greece. Its borders and coastlines are also quite mountainous.

Yugoslavia is also less cohesive internally, with ethnic minority discontent by Slovenes, Croatians, Albanians, and Macedonians, and Mussolini's Ustashe ties. But it is hard to say whether Croatians make a clean break to work with the Italians or if fears for Italian territorial ambition in Dalmatia unites different Yugoslav groups in resistance.

Yugoslavia's main trading partner, Germany, will be pissed at Mussolini's off-script move, but they are stuck with Italy as an ally and cannot accept Yugoslavia having a successful resistance. How does Greece react to the aggression against its northern neighbor?

I imagine, unless the Italians face a truly improbable swift and definitive repulse, that Italy will be able to persuade Hungary and especially Bulgaria to enter the war against Yugoslavia to advance their own historical claims. And, if Italy or any of these allies bog down, or there appears to be Greek or British interference brewing, the Germans would probably get involved on the Italian and minor Axis side to end the conflict quickly.

I assume with this many opponents, it would be a matter of time before Yugoslavia falls and is ooccupied. Once the occupation of Yugoslavia is complete, what is the geopolitical situation of Greece? Can it remain largely undisturbed as a neutral country, trading with the Axis, like Turkey was? Or would security motives and the momentum of the Yugoslavia campaign lead on to Italian and Bulgarian operations aimed at occupying Greece, with German support probable? Or might Metaxas surprise us, 'go with the flow' and sign the Axis Pact as a method of holding on to territory and regime political power?
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
What about Metaxas and Greece going the other direction than Axis appeasement or desperate neutrality? Seeing the Italian, and then Bulgarian, invasion of Yugoslavia as the writing on the wall for Greece as the next target for these countries sooner or later, so Greece pre-emptively makes a plea for full alliance with the British, offering air and ground bases in return for air and ground support forces, and declaring war on Italy and Bulgaria? The Greeks might be more likely to tip this way especially if in the early days of the Yugoslavia invasion the Italians look like they are underperforming, and the Yugoslavs are putting on a good show - which may happen for awhile if the only Axis air force at first is the Regia Aeronautica and not the Luftwaffe at the beginning because Mussolini is doing this to start without telling the Germans?

What could the British even send in November, December, January 1940, and can it, along with mobilized Greeks and retreating Yugoslavs Serbs, face the Italians and Bulgarians for awhile. How many weeks would it take the Germans to mass enough forces to clean up Greece and all its peninsulas? In OTL, the Greek intervention went awfully for the British, and it didn't have much chance and really should have been skipped under the circumstances, but here with the British and Greeks potentially getting a head start on the German timetable and Yugoslavia instead suffering the early attritional blows, perhaps Greece could be made into a nasty attritional tarpit for the whole Axis, truly delaying Barbarossa.
 
I cannot see the territorial divisions made in Yugoslavia being too different from OTL though I think that the 'Independent State of Croatia' will now firmly be an Italian puppet state with minimal influence from Germany.

What would happen to Serbia, who would occupy it seeing as IOTL it was occupied by Germany who established the Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia? I can see Romania being given Banat but I do not know who would be occupying central Serbia, I think it would be out of the reach of Italy so it likely comes under Bulgarian occupation, perhaps Bulgaria set up a puppet state in Serbia?

Balkan_boundary_changes_1938_to_1941.jpg
 
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raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
I cannot see the territorial divisions made in Yugoslavia being too different from OTL though I think that the 'Independent State of Croatia' will now firmly be an Italian puppet state with minimal influence from Germany.

What would happen to Serbia, who would occupy it seeing as IOTL it was occupied by Germany who established the Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia? I can see Romania being given Banat but I do not know who would be occupying central Serbia, I think it would be out of the reach of Italy so it likely comes under Bulgarian occupation, perhaps Bulgaria set up a puppet state in Serbia?

Balkan_boundary_changes_1938_to_1941.jpg
That is an excellent question- I don't know how Serbia would be resolved. It would certainly be landlocked and cut off from outside support.
 

Basils

Banned
What if Mussolini invaded Yugoslavia at the end of October1940 instead of Greece? Let's assume that any of the build-up of forces, and build up of tensions or demands that occurred vis-a-vis Greece in earlier October and possibly September is directed toward Yugoslavia rather than Greece, for the most part.

Mussolini's motive, like in the OTL Greek case, is to make a strong move to assert Italian influence in the Balkans, especially after the German move to change Romania's borders and send troops there without consulting the Italians or their interests. He simply uses Yugoslavia as the stage to make a show, rather than Greece.

Instead of just attacking the target from Albania, as in the Greek case, the Italians also attack the Yugoslavs out of Venetia and Istria. They also employ their navy and air force in supporting landings and bombardments in Dalmatia in support of the ground prongs.

The Italians might have had plans of longer-standing and greater detail for Yugoslavia than for Greece. Whether that helps Italy is hard to say.

The broad front of attack should be helpful to the Italians, but Yugoslavia is a larger opponent, capable of fielding a larger army than Greece. Its borders and coastlines are also quite mountainous.

Yugoslavia is also less cohesive internally, with ethnic minority discontent by Slovenes, Croatians, Albanians, and Macedonians, and Mussolini's Ustashe ties. But it is hard to say whether Croatians make a clean break to work with the Italians or if fears for Italian territorial ambition in Dalmatia unites different Yugoslav groups in resistance.

Yugoslavia's main trading partner, Germany, will be pissed at Mussolini's off-script move, but they are stuck with Italy as an ally and cannot accept Yugoslavia having a successful resistance. How does Greece react to the aggression against its northern neighbor?

I imagine, unless the Italians face a truly improbable swift and definitive repulse, that Italy will be able to persuade Hungary and especially Bulgaria to enter the war against Yugoslavia to advance their own historical claims. And, if Italy or any of these allies bog down, or there appears to be Greek or British interference brewing, the Germans would probably get involved on the Italian and minor Axis side to end the conflict quickly.

I assume with this many opponents, it would be a matter of time before Yugoslavia falls and is ooccupied. Once the occupation of Yugoslavia is complete, what is the geopolitical situation of Greece? Can it remain largely undisturbed as a neutral country, trading with the Axis, like Turkey was? Or would security motives and the momentum of the Yugoslavia campaign lead on to Italian and Bulgarian operations aimed at occupying Greece, with German support probable? Or might Metaxas surprise us, 'go with the flow' and sign the Axis Pact as a method of holding on to territory and regime political power?
ITTl Greece instead of Yugoslavia commits suicide for the sake of the west? Interesting concept and wonder if the civil war in Yugoslavia would be worse or better due to this scenario. While Greece would possibly have a worse civil war than OTTL due to some thinking throwing in with the Allies was the wrong move to make and going full on collaboration
 
There is now no real reason for Germany to attack Greece, since Italy and Bulgaria who share a border can keep an eye on them. The Italian army being less motorised and less dynamic than the German army will take longer to subdue Yugoslavia which should last months ITTL rather than days to weeks.
Greece already had its treaty with Britain by this time, so will remain neutral and has no incentive to come under Italian control.
Assuming Yugoslavia is more or less under control about April 1941, Mussolini might well attack Greece soon after, but this time from two sides. Does Bulgaria join in? And then how well does Greece do against an exhausted Italian army and possibly a fresh Bulgarian one?
It gets interesting because with Italy looking after Yugoslavia, it's quite likely that the German troops are all massing ready for Barbarossa, so won't be available if (when?) things start to go wrong in Greece.
Britain plus Greece vs Italy and (maybe) Bulgaria sounds a more even fight than OTL, and pretty much rules out a parachute assault on Crete - they will be busy in Barbarossa, filling in for the 100,000 Italian troops that OTL were there and ITTL are in Yugoslavia and Greece in place of the OTL Germans. .
So maybe Greece likely holds on longer, and it's very likely Crete holds (even if the airborne units are relocated, the Italians can't force the pace of withdrawal the Germans managed so the British and Greeks will bring more equipment to Crete and arrive in better order to a more fortified island. The likelihood of a German aerial success is considerably reduced from OTL.
 

thaddeus

Donor
based on historical events, it seems Italy would struggle against Yugoslavia, despite having dusted off more extensive war plans than they had to invade Greece. Bulgaria is not going to be a savior, they annexed some territories in the wake of the German war machine, but had previously resisted all sorts of Italian alliances and plans.

Greece is well warned what is ahead in this scenario, they were not formal allies with Yugoslavia, it does raise the possibility of at least some clandestine cooperation though, probably dependent on how the Yugoslavs are faring?

IDK how plausible some German-Greek deal would be, to eliminate any future Italian invasion? among the many problems with that, Germany favored Bulgaria as a stable force in the Balkans.
 
based on historical events, it seems Italy would struggle against Yugoslavia, despite having dusted off more extensive war plans than they had to invade Greece. Bulgaria is not going to be a savior, they annexed some territories in the wake of the German war machine, but had previously resisted all sorts of Italian alliances and plans.

Greece is well warned what is ahead in this scenario, they were not formal allies with Yugoslavia, it does raise the possibility of at least some clandestine cooperation though, probably dependent on how the Yugoslavs are faring?

IDK how plausible some German-Greek deal would be, to eliminate any future Italian invasion? among the many problems with that, Germany favored Bulgaria as a stable force in the Balkans.
Greece had a treaty with Britain already, and had seen what happened in the Saar,Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway France, Belgium, Netherlands,Luxemburg. Why would they side with Italy's ally Germany just as Italy has all but surrounded Greece (and can now let their German allies through), especially when Germany has so clearly shown total disregard for treaties?

One curious thought just arrived.
Could Italy get Greece to help in Yugoslavia by offering them a free hand in Macedonia, or would Rhodes, Kos and the other islands be too much of a sticking point?
This would put them as co-belligerents, not true axis members, but may not cause a rift with the British because they are temporarily very short of allies and because it could be presented as reclaiming former Greek territory.
 
Italian pressure would in my opinion homogenise the population of Yugoslavia. One of the primary reasons why Slovene and Croatian delegations made the deal with the Serb and Montenegrin ones post WW I was to avoid greater Italian occupation than it happened OTL. Even during the OTL Axis invasion, Croatian units resisted the Italians and Hungarians while only "melting" along German lines of advance. The perception of various Axis powers was quite different.

If Italy comes in alone or supported by Hungary the likelihood of Slovenes and Croats strongly banding together with Serbs to resist is far higher than the opposite. Especially since this would be very recently after the "national issue" kingdom of Yugoslavia was suffering from was sort of managed with the creation of Croatian Banovina.

The main invasion routes from Istria and Albania would have to deal with some really unfavourable terrain for offensive operations while Zadar while surrounded by far more favourable terrain would be quite isolated and susceptible to ambushes by torpedo boats onto its lines supply. Even if the Italians manage to amass and supply sufficient forces to secure Ravni Kotari their historic performance makes me confident to say they would bounce off the Dinaric Alps.

The campaign in my opinion would be an even worse disaster than Greece.
 

thaddeus

Donor
IDK how plausible some German-Greek deal would be, to eliminate any future Italian invasion? among the many problems with that, Germany favored Bulgaria as a stable force in the Balkans.

Greece had a treaty with Britain already, and had seen what happened in the Saar,Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway France, Belgium, Netherlands,Luxemburg. Why would they side with Italy's ally Germany just as Italy has all but surrounded Greece (and can now let their German allies through), especially when Germany has so clearly shown total disregard for treaties?

One curious thought just arrived.
Could Italy get Greece to help in Yugoslavia by offering them a free hand in Macedonia, or would Rhodes, Kos and the other islands be too much of a sticking point?
This would put them as co-belligerents, not true axis members, but may not cause a rift with the British because they are temporarily very short of allies and because it could be presented as reclaiming former Greek territory.

you dismiss my suggestion of some dealings between Germany and Greece and then proceed to speculate on Greece allying with Italy to dismember a third country??

Metaxas viewed Germany as able to restrain Italy (at least during peacetime) and they also had influence over Bulgaria, not sure Britain would be viewed as a perfect ally either, they are almost certain to become a battlefield if British forces arrive.

"Ever since the Corfu incident of 1923, the Greeks had regarded Italy as the principal enemy, and as long as Italy and Germany were divided by the "Austrian Question", Metaxas saw Germany as a counterweight to Italy. The British historian D. C. Watt described Metaxas as living "in a paranoiac world" as he was convinced that Britain was seeking his overthrow, seeing plots against him everywhere. The emergence of the "Rome-Berlin Axis" in 1936 greatly upset Metaxas's calculations and forced him to reevaluate Greece's foreign policy alignments, though he continued to hope for a long time that Germany would restrain Italy in the Balkans. In the late 1930s, as with the other Balkan countries, Germany became Greece's largest trading partner."
 
Not so much allying as taking advantage of an opportunity they won't get again and they can present it as saving former Greek territory from foreign domination.
Collaboration then as now didn't necessarily mean alliance or general political alignment. Poland, for example, took part of Czechoslovakia without allying with Germany, and Finland fought the soviets to recover Karelia without allying with Italy or Germany. The fact that Greece had signed a treaty with Britain indicates they wanted no part of German or Italian interference, so why would they break this to align with a hostile power they won't even share a border with.

In short, I can see Greece accepting an opportunity that also happens to benefit Italy without changing their agreement with Britain, and without allying or aligning with Italy or Germany.
 
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