WI Charles the Bold of Burgundy was a woman?

[Avrorrange]

Suppose Charles the Bold(let’s call her Isabella of Burgundy after her mother)was born a woman and she remains the only child(like otl), she’s probably gonna succeed her father’s rule.Who would she marry? I am guessing that she would be married to Henry VI of England to maintain the English alliance. Would this be sufficient to ’win’ the Hundred Years’ War or maintain the English territories to the North now that Burgundy has a personal interest in the English winning? I would presume that if Henry goes mad, Isabella could probably take over quite easily with her father’s support.

 

[Raferty]

Well, if she is also some kind of aggressive military genius than that may be plausible, and this might have other repercussions

But that aside, I don't know if the English really could win even with the Burgundians. It was just such a massive resource commitment against a foe with much more mobilizable manpower, and if the Burgundians really throw their lot in with the English, and get enmeshed in the war, it's gonna be hard to keep the northern territories from getting reactive over having to bear the financial burden of the war, while the southern territories would like be attacked

 

[Elfwine]

Henry only married in 1445 OTL, and Isabella would be eleven going on twelve at the time as far as her instead of Margaret of Anjou.

By that point, I'm not sure even Burgundy changing to support England is going to change that the Lancasterian cause in France is not favorable at all - not just the general issues with it, but they're well on the way to specifically having lost.

So my money is on it possibly extending things, but not changing the course of the war or leading to the English keeping the territories not yet lost in the North as far as "to the end of Henry's reign or longer".

 

[Avrorrange]

Henry only married in 1445 OTL, which is notable as Isabella is only twelve at the time.

By that point, I'm not sure even Burgundy going into support of England is going to change that the Lancasterian cause in France is not favorable at all - not just the general issues with it, but they're well on the way to specifically losing.

Betrothal is a thing, and there’s plenty of 12 yo brides in the period, they just consummate the marriage later. If they were betrothed before the Treaty of Arras, it probably changes the dynamic of the Anglo-Burgundian relationship.

 

[Elfwine]

Betrothal is a thing. If they were betrothed before the Treaty of Arras, it probably changes the dynamic of the Anglo-Burgundian relationship.

She's not yet two (as of the Treaty of Arras), then. I don't know the minimum age for betrothal in those days off the top of my head, I'm afraid.

I'm not an expert on Burgundy, so I don't know what you'd need to convince Philip to make that decision over his OTL one, but I suspect it would have to be pretty convincing.

And while 1435 is better than 1445, I'm not sure the main issues - that fighting the HYW is very expensive for a heavily debt-burdened Lancastrian dynasty - have really been relieved by very much here.

It does make things more interesting, but I think as long as Henry is well, OTL Henry VI, and the debts that immense - I do not think you're getting an English win, and holding on to what it has now (1433-1435) feels like a long shot.

Especially with that it suits Burgundy, if Isabella is only betrothed and not married, to keep his options open.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

Hmm, could we see a French match instead? If she somehow gets married towards Louis XI it unites the two lands and she gets to be Queen of France, given the desire to further centralize the Netherlands and Louis being Louis with his desire to further erode noble power in favor of royal one, it could be a possibility that the French manage to subdue the area and control it like crownland.


Of course that would have massive butterflies given it would spawn a mega France but if you know me, you know I'm all about that

 

[Janprimus]

Hmm, could we see a French match instead? If she somehow gets married towards Louis XI it unites the two lands and she gets to be Queen of France, given the desire to further centralize the Netherlands and Louis being Louis with his desire to further erode noble power in favor of royal one, it could be a possibility that the French manage to subdue the area and control it like crownland.


Of course that would have massive butterflies given it would spawn a mega France but if you know me, you know I'm all about that

How about TTL Isabella/Elisabeth marries duke John II of Lorraine of the house of Valois-Anjou. Or alternatively maybe a Prince-Elector of the Palatinate.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

How about TTL Isabella/Elisabeth marries duke John II of Lorraine of the house of Valois-Anjou. Or alternatively maybe a Prince-Elector of the Palatinate.

Not familiar with who they are tbh, I suggested a French match because I think that's the more interesting outcome.

 

[DrakeRlugia]

Hmm, could we see a French match instead? If she somehow gets married towards Louis XI it unites the two lands and she gets to be Queen of France, given the desire to further centralize the Netherlands and Louis being Louis with his desire to further erode noble power in favor of royal one, it could be a possibility that the French manage to subdue the area and control it like crownland.


Of course that would have massive butterflies given it would spawn a mega France but if you know me, you know I'm all about that

I think the French would likely push for match. I mean, the Valois-Burgundy dying out earlier has massive repercussions: for one, their French fiefs were bound by Salic law, and so would likely fall back to the King of France. If he has the resources to take them, that's another thing, but it's likely the Duchy of Burgundy is seized at a minimum.

How about TTL Isabella/Elisabeth marries duke John II of Lorraine of the house of Valois-Anjou. Or alternatively maybe a Prince-Elector of the Palatinate.

John II especially would be interesting. Especially if they have children.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

I think the French would likely push for match. I mean, the Valois-Burgundy dying out earlier has massive repercussions: for one, their French fiefs were bound by Salic law, and so would likely fall back to the King of France. If he has the resources to take them, that's another thing, but it's likely the Duchy of Burgundy is seized at a minimum.


John II especially would be interesting. Especially if they have children.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking, no way in hell would France lose the opportunity to not only absorb the Duchy of Burgundy but also get the Netherlands added to the realm which would be a massive boom in many matters from economic towards population and even royal power as they would have so many new lands to further counter the Greats of the kingdom. Even if Isabella and Louis XI don't manage to have children, whoever succeeds him could argue that due to Isabella having been married to the King of France, her lands would pass to the legitimate heir of whoever was next in line.

 

[Janprimus]

Not familiar with who they are tbh, I suggested a French match because I think that's the more interesting outcome.

I am from the Burgundian Low Countries, Lorraine would connect both halves of our Burgundian State, whereas the Electorate of the Palatinate is smaller, but it would give ''Burgundy'' an Electorate an a stake in the Empire.

@DrakeRlugia: apart from the disputed succession to the duchy of Burgundy, Philip the Bold exchanged his appanage the duchy of Touraine for the full grant made to him by his father and acknowledged by his brother of the duchy of Burgundy. All the other Burgundian and Imperial fiefs were inherited through the female line, so rightfully France has no role there.

 

[Janprimus]

Not familiar with who they are tbh, I suggested a French match because I think that's the more interesting outcome.

Why is that more interesting? Duke John II of Lorraine, from the house of Valois-Anjou, son of duke René of Lorraine, count of Provence and pretender to the throne of Naples, his sister was Margaret of Anjou. Strategically for Burgundy, this match would be perfect and it improves ties with both France and most likely England.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

Why is that more interesting? Duke John II of Lorraine, from the house of Valois-Anjou, son of duke René of Lorraine, count of Provence and pretender to the throne of Naples, his sister was Margaret of Anjou. Strategically for Burgundy, this match would be perfect and it improves ties with both France and most likely England.

Because I like the idea of a mega France 😛

But yeah sorta making up a Lotharingia in French doorstep would be interesting, Louis XI and his successors would probably do everything to make sure any descendants of that match would marry into their own to try and grab it, and I'm sure the Lords of the newly born Lotharingia would appreciate the possibility of becoming the new ruling monarchs of France, especially if following events from OTL where Charles VIII left no living male descendants and was succeeded by his cousin, here maybe we could see the Valois Burgundy taking up the throne.

 

[DrakeRlugia]

I am from the Burgundian Low Countries, Lorraine would connect both halves of our Burgundian State, whereas the Electorate of the Palatinate is smaller, but it would give ''Burgundy'' an Electorate an a stake in the Empire.

@DrakeRlugia: apart from the disputed succession to the duchy of Burgundy, Philip the Bold exchanged his appanage the duchy of Touraine for the full grant made to him by his father and acknowledged by his brother of the duchy of Burgundy. All the other Burgundian and Imperial fiefs were inherited through the female line, so rightfully France has no role there.

Yes, but most French royal appanges did not allow for female succession under any circumstance; they were grants made to younger sons and were expected to return the crown when the male line was extinguished. One could argue that the Duchy of Burgundy is a unique case in that it wasn't an explicit royal appange. John II was never able to absorb the duchy into the royal domains as other territories had been, and essentially ruled Burgundy in personal union with France until he handed it off over to his son, but it was certainly treated as such, and certainly Louis XI believed that it reverted to him upon the death of Charles the Bold IOTL. But regardless, things in France were beginning to tend towards the French kings wishing to constrain the territorial princes who had received such appanges, precisely because so many (Burgundy, Orleans, Anjou, ect) had seen the growth of their territories and influence, and often acted against the interest of France.

The other Burgundian fiefs outside of France, in Franche-Comté and the Low Countries, however, the French have no claim too.

 

[Janprimus]

Something else which needs to be taken into consideration is the father, Philip the Good. Though he did eventually reconcile with the French court, he never really forgave them for the murder of his father John the Fearless. In fact for the rest of his life, he wore black clothes, to remember this and them.
Hence why I don't see Philip the Good giving away the heritage of his house to the king of France. Heck TTL Isabella might sooner marry HRE Frederick III of Austria. OTOH Philip the Good was rather Francophone, so IMHO I find the house of Valois-Anjou with duke John II of Lorraine, a plausible candidate.

 

[Janprimus]

Yes, but most French royal appanges did not allow for female succession under any circumstance; they were grants made to younger sons and were expected to return the crown when the male line was extinguished. One could argue that the Duchy of Burgundy is a unique case in that it wasn't an explicit royal appange. John II was never able to absorb the duchy into the royal domains as other territories had been, and essentially ruled Burgundy in personal union with France until he handed it off over to his son, but it was certainly treated as such, and certainly Louis XI believed that it reverted to him upon the death of Charles the Bold IOTL. But regardless, things in France were beginning to tend towards the French kings wishing to constrain the territorial princes who had received such appanges, precisely because so many (Burgundy, Orleans, Anjou, ect) had seen the growth of their territories and influence, and often acted against the interest of France.

Indeed, given how king John the Good of France inherited Burgundy and it was passed to Philip the Bold, with the explicit support of Charles V the Wise of France, the house of Valois-Burgundy, thus maintained the position, that they held the duchy of Burgundy under the same conditions as the Capetian house of Burgundy as granted to duke Robert the Old by his brother king Henry I of France. After first having fought their father king Robert II together, the infighting began after Henry I succeeded his father and Robert the Old initially got nothing, eventually Robert got the duchy of Burgundy to settle the dispute. The Capetian house of Burgundy had male preference succession, but succession by or through the female line was allowed in the absence of a direct male heir.
In the end it wasn't what Louis XI thought, the transfer of the duchy was forced by French military force, the dispute lingered on for a while after, reaching its' peak with HRE Charles V of Habsburg and king Francis I of France. And the Habsburgs kept claiming the duchy, Habsburg-Lorraine dropped the claim after the Congress of Vienna ( but still keep their part of the Order of the Golden Fleece), the Spanish Bourbons as heirs of the Spanish Habsburgs still nominally do.

The other Burgundian fiefs outside of France, in Franche-Comté and the Low Countries, however, the French have no claim too.

Not only the Burgundian Imperial fiefs, this is also true for the then still French fiefs, like the counties of Flanders and Artois.

 

[DrakeRlugia]

Not only the Burgundian Imperial fiefs, this is also true for the then still French fiefs, like the counties of Flanders and Artois.

Yes, as those were fiefs brought into the House of Valois-Burgundy through marriage to heiresses, not grants from the crown. Most feudal French fiefs were allowed (and did) allow women to succeed, or for claims to be transferred through the female line.

But I agree that a French match is unlikely, even if Louis XI attempts to push it at the point of a bayonet. Louis XI won't even have a son when this Isabella of Burgundy succeeds in 1467 (if we want to assume she still becomes Duchess around the time of the OTL Charles the Bold). The only member of the direct French royal line would be Louis XI's brother, the Duke of Berry... who was not on best terms with his brother after the War of the Public Weal. Louis XI would absolutely not wish to see his brother married to the Duchess of Burgundy and elevated to such a position of power. I suppose that would be an interesting match as well, though the Duke of Berry only lived a few years past 1467.

 

[Janprimus]

Yes, as those were fiefs brought into the House of Valois-Burgundy through marriage to heiresses, not grants from the crown. Most feudal French fiefs were allowed (and did) allow women to succeed, or for claims to be transferred through the female line.

As was the situation in the duchy of Burgundy under the Capetian house of Burgundy, the Burgundian claim was, that this was continued, whereas the French claim was, that it was an appanage. Given the unusual way John the Good acquired the duchy and it was passed to Philip the Bold, makes it uniquely unclear.

But I agree that a French match is unlikely, even if Louis XI attempts to push it at the point of a bayonet. Louis XI won't even have a son when this Isabella of Burgundy succeeds in 1467 (if we want to assume she still becomes Duchess around the time of the OTL Charles the Bold). The only member of the direct French royal line would be Louis XI's brother, the Duke of Berry... who was not on best terms with his brother after the War of the Public Weal. Louis XI would absolutely not wish to see his brother married to the Duchess of Burgundy and elevated to such a position of power. I suppose that would be an interesting match as well, though the Duke of Berry only lived a few years past 1467.

A match with the duke of Berry could be interesting as well, though the strategic value of Lorraine can be taken into consideration. Moreover the house of Valois-Anjou not only controlled the duchy of Lorraine, but also controlled (not counting the junior branch in Maine) the duchy of Anjou, the county of Provence and the duchy of Bar.
Combining these with the Burgundian Lands will also give headaches to the kings of France, heck in this case the king of France might even prefer the Burgundian Lands, except Burgundy proper, going to HRE Frederick III of Austria, then having Valois-Burgundy and Valois-Anjou joining forces.
Edit: Valois-Anjou combined with Valois-Burgundy might at one point also want to pursue their claim on the kingdom of Naples.

 

[material_boy]

I am guessing that she would be married to Henry VI of England to maintain the English alliance. Would this be sufficient to ’win’ the Hundred Years’ War

Considering Henry VI is still Henry VI, I'd guess no.

 

[Avrorrange]

Considering Henry VI is still Henry VI, I'd guess no.

The war was more or less lost in the period of his regency because the Burgundians left though, although it was certainly going south even before then.