WI: James F. Byrnes became FDR’s running mate in 1940?

IOTL, Henry Wallace was personally picked by FDR as his new running mate in 1940. A presidential nominee picking his own running mate was considered unprecedented and do set that precedent moving forward, so this could’ve easily not happened. Instead, FDR goes with someone his aides were pushing: South Carolina Senator James F. Byrnes, someone who was moderately pro-New Deal and a staunch supporter of Roosevelt's foreign policy but is also a regional balance as a Southerner. Obviously, Byrnes is more conservative than Wallace, especially on race. Regardless, FDR most likely still wins in 1940 and probably in 1944 as well.

How would a Byrnes vice presidency and even presidency be if he's retained in 1944 and how would 1948 shape up with Byrnes in the mix? Also would Roosevelt not picking his own running mate continue the tradition of party insiders having the predominant say on the vice presidential nomination to the present day or would it just kick the ball down the road and allow someone else to break that precedent?​
 
Byrnes is more conservative than Wallace, especially on race
President Harry Truman was interested in pushing the Army and Navy to desegregate, and successful at so pushing.

If “President Byrnes” goes slower, we as a society may finally be getting around to doing equal rights during the economic downturn of the 1970s. Not good.
 
Hmm.

I knew that Byrnes was on the shortlist in 1944 (Truman even planned to make a nominating speech for him at the DNC). But I never heard that he was considered in 1940.

First obvious knock-on: the Republicans had Wallace's "Dear Guru" letters to theosophist mystic Nicholas Roerich. The Democrats had proof of Willkie's adulterous affair with Irita Van Doren. Thus Mutual Assured Destruction, so neither side used its bomb. If Wallace is not on the ticket, there's nothing deterring the Democrats from exposing Willkie. That sort of personal-misconduct attack hadn't been seen at the national level since 1884, and didn't show up again OTL until Gary Hart's implosion in 1984. So the tone of future US elections could be considerably changed.

Second obvious knock-on: Roosevelt won't appoint Byrnes to the Supreme Court in 1941. It looks to me like Byrnes was chosen to replace fellow Southerner James McReynolds, who retired on 31 January 1941. Who does Roosevelt name instead? If Roosevelt wants a Southerner, then he won't name Wiley Rutledge of Iowa, who OTL replaced Byrnes in October 1942.

Third obvious knock-on: OTL, Byrnes left the Supreme Court in October 1942 to become Director of the Office of Economic Stabilization and then of the Office of War Mobilization, with his office in the White House. As such, he was the manager of the US war economy, which he did brilliantly. He displayed such great political and administrative skills that his influence expanded well beyond his official authority, and he became known as the "Assistant President". ITTL, Byrnes would be available for this sort of role immediately. Though to be sure the OES was not created until October 1942, Roosevelt would have found some important role for Byrnes before that.

This last knock-on means Byrnes will have an even bigger role than OTL. The idea of the Vice President as "Assistant President" will get a significant boost, and future Vic e Presidential candidates will be expected to have similar qualities.

in the middle term - Byrnes will almost certainly be renominated in in 1944, and therefore succeed Roosevelt in 1945. IMO, given his his wartime service and position as Roosevelt's obvious successor, Roosevelt might even yield the 1944 nomination to Byrnes, who would win easily.

The knock-on from that is that a Southerner would be elected President much earlier than OTL, and obviously so could another. That would strengthen the Dixiecrat position in the Democratic Party, as would having an outright white supremacist as President.

In both that case and if Byrnes succeeds as President in 1945, Byrnes would be incumbent President in 1948. It would be very hard to deny him renomination, but there would be resistance from liberal non-Southern Democrats who OTL got the party to adopt a civil rights plank and triggered the Dixiecrat walkout. ITTL, without Presidential support that move would fail. So no Dixiecrat walkout or third-party ticket. Instead perhaps the Republicans get aggressive on the civil rights issue, and regain the black vote.

I don't see a Left third-party ticket either: there would be no Wallace analog to front it. (ITTL Wallace would continue as SecAg, and fade into obscurity.) Though if Byrnes is elected President in 1944, then someone would replace him as Vice President, most likely a northern liberal for balance. That person might run third-party, if there is sufficient outrage against Byrnes and the Dixiecrats. More likely though, Democrat liberals sit on their hands in 1948 while Byrnes goes down to defeat, and then move to seize control of the party from the now-discredited Dixiecrats.
 
President Harry Truman was interested in pushing the Army and Navy to desegregate, and successful at so pushing.

If “President Byrnes” goes slower, we as a society may finally be getting around to doing equal rights during the economic downturn of the 1970s. Not good.
If that's the case, then the whole tone of the 1960s changes as we won't see a whitelash against the Democrats and while student movements and a Vietnam War would make things less, one less thing to intensify that decade.

One thing for sure is that it would be the Republican Party that would lead the charge on civil rights.
Hmm.

I knew that Byrnes was on the shortlist in 1944 (Truman even planned to make a nominating speech for him at the DNC). But I never heard that he was considered in 1940.

First obvious knock-on: the Republicans had Wallace's "Dear Guru" letters to theosophist mystic Nicholas Roerich. The Democrats had proof of Willkie's adulterous affair with Irita Van Doren. Thus Mutual Assured Destruction, so neither side used its bomb. If Wallace is not on the ticket, there's nothing deterring the Democrats from exposing Willkie. That sort of personal-misconduct attack hadn't been seen at the national level since 1884, and didn't show up again OTL until Gary Hart's implosion in 1984. So the tone of future US elections could be considerably changed.

Second obvious knock-on: Roosevelt won't appoint Byrnes to the Supreme Court in 1941. It looks to me like Byrnes was chosen to replace fellow Southerner James McReynolds, who retired on 31 January 1941. Who does Roosevelt name instead? If Roosevelt wants a Southerner, then he won't name Wiley Rutledge of Iowa, who OTL replaced Byrnes in October 1942.

Third obvious knock-on: OTL, Byrnes left the Supreme Court in October 1942 to become Director of the Office of Economic Stabilization and then of the Office of War Mobilization, with his office in the White House. As such, he was the manager of the US war economy, which he did brilliantly. He displayed such great political and administrative skills that his influence expanded well beyond his official authority, and he became known as the "Assistant President". ITTL, Byrnes would be available for this sort of role immediately. Though to be sure the OES was not created until October 1942, Roosevelt would have found some important role for Byrnes before that.

This last knock-on means Byrnes will have an even bigger role than OTL. The idea of the Vice President as "Assistant President" will get a significant boost, and future Vic e Presidential candidates will be expected to have similar qualities.

in the middle term - Byrnes will almost certainly be renominated in in 1944, and therefore succeed Roosevelt in 1945. IMO, given his his wartime service and position as Roosevelt's obvious successor, Roosevelt might even yield the 1944 nomination to Byrnes, who would win easily.

The knock-on from that is that a Southerner would be elected President much earlier than OTL, and obviously so could another. That would strengthen the Dixiecrat position in the Democratic Party, as would having an outright white supremacist as President.

In both that case and if Byrnes succeeds as President in 1945, Byrnes would be incumbent President in 1948. It would be very hard to deny him renomination, but there would be resistance from liberal non-Southern Democrats who OTL got the party to adopt a civil rights plank and triggered the Dixiecrat walkout. ITTL, without Presidential support that move would fail. So no Dixiecrat walkout or third-party ticket. Instead perhaps the Republicans get aggressive on the civil rights issue, and regain the black vote.

I don't see a Left third-party ticket either: there would be no Wallace analog to front it. (ITTL Wallace would continue as SecAg, and fade into obscurity.) Though if Byrnes is elected President in 1944, then someone would replace him as Vice President, most likely a northern liberal for balance. That person might run third-party, if there is sufficient outrage against Byrnes and the Dixiecrats. More likely though, Democrat liberals sit on their hands in 1948 while Byrnes goes down to defeat, and then move to seize control of the party from the now-discredited Dixiecrats.
I could see any black Democrat congressmen around endorsing either any sort of liberal third party effort or defecting to Dewey in 1948.
 
The main problem with James Byrnes is that he is a covert to the Episcopalian Church and leaving the Catholic Church.
That was a big No-No to a significant faction of the Democratic Party who felt that Byrnes left the Church to further his political ambitions.
In 1944, Sen. Truman was pushing for Byrnes for the second spot on the ticket but the Big City machines who were mostly Irish Catholic were opposed.
 
I could see any black Democrat congressmen around endorsing either any sort of liberal third party effort or defecting to Dewey in 1948.
There were two: Adam Clayton Powell (NY), and William L. Dawson (IL). Dawson was a Republican until 1939. The "Black Belt" congressional district in Chicago had elected Republican Oscar De Priest in 1928, 1930, and 1932. Arthur W. Mitchell, who had switched parties in 1932, defeated De Priest in 1934 and 1936, and Dawson in 1938, all relatively close contests. After switching, Dawson succeeded Mitchell in 1942. One might see Dawson switching back - but more likely he just endorses Dewey for President, while remaining loyal to the Democrat machine in Chicago, rather than "fight City Hall".
The main problem with James Byrnes is that he is a covert to the Episcopalian Church and leaving the Catholic Church.
That was a big No-No to a significant faction of the Democratic Party who felt that Byrnes left the Church to further his political ambitions.
In 1944, Sen. Truman was pushing for Byrnes for the second spot on the ticket but the Big City machines who were mostly Irish Catholic were opposed.
AIUI, the city bosses were more worried about the effect of Byrnes on the rapidly growing black vote in their cities. It wasn't all that long since black voters had finally begun to leave "the Party of Lincoln", and if the national party openly embraced a segregationist, that could reverse the trend.
 
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If that's the case, then the whole tone of the 1960s changes as we won't see a whitelash against the Democrats and while student movements and a Vietnam War would make things less, one less thing to intensify that decade.

One thing for sure is that it would be the Republican Party that would lead the charge on civil rights.

I could see any black Democrat congressmen around endorsing either any sort of liberal third party effort or defecting to Dewey in 1948.
What happens 10 years later, in Brown? Byrnes was a segregationist, but not of the Barnett, Maddox variety. He tried to equalize separate schools. Would we have a tougher lawyer for Justice Marshall to fight with? Davis is brilliant, but an old man, and honorable despite being very wrong on this issue.
 
Byrnes left the Supreme Court in October 1942 to become Director of the Office of Economic Stabilization and then of the Office of War Mobilization, with his office in the White House. As such, he was the manager of the US war economy, which he did brilliantly. He displayed such great political and administrative skills that his influence expanded well beyond his official authority, and he became known as the "Assistant President". ITTL, Byrnes would be available for this sort of role immediately
Maybe.

I kind of think of the Vice-Presidency as a real man killer. You take a confident person used to getting things done and they become a useless 3rd wheel. Roosevelt’s 1st Vice-President said the job was not worth a “warm bucket of piss.” Although the newspapers cleaned this up to “warm bucket of spit.”

Is it just because the Vice-President is the one person who can’t be fired and therefore the President keeps him at arm’s length?
 
The main problem with James Byrnes is that he is a covert to the Episcopalian Church and leaving the Catholic Church.
That was a big No-No to a significant faction of the Democratic Party who felt that Byrnes left the Church to further his political ambitions.
In 1944, Sen. Truman was pushing for Byrnes for the second spot on the ticket but the Big City machines who were mostly Irish Catholic were opposed.
1944 was different from 1940 in that everyone kinda expected FDR to die or they thought there was a strong chance of him dying, so they probably would be similar but weaker opposition on those terms.
Not entirely; in 1920 Cox picked Franklin Roosevelt, who was nominated by acclamation.
From my understanding (I might be wrong) Cox asked the delegates to nominate FDR and they just went with it, whereas Roosevelt made his own decision. I’m not sure how much of a difference that would be but at the minimum, Cox lost in 1920 and FDR would win in 1940 no matter what so maybe that’s the big difference.
What happens 10 years later, in Brown? Byrnes was a segregationist, but not of the Barnett, Maddox variety. He tried to equalize separate schools. Would we have a tougher lawyer for Justice Marshall to fight with? Davis is brilliant, but an old man, and honorable despite being very wrong on this issue.
Byrnes kicked the ball to Kansas by requesting they file an amicus curiae brief when the NAACP originally sued South Carolina so the Brown decision might be against South Carolina ITTL. By then though Byrnes definitely wouldn’t be president.
Maybe.

I kind of think of the Vice-Presidency as a real man killer. You take a confident person used to getting things done and they become a useless 3rd wheel. Roosevelt’s 1st Vice-President said the job was not worth a “warm bucket of piss.” Although the newspapers cleaned this up to “warm bucket of spit.”

Is it just because the Vice-President is the one person who can’t be fired and therefore the President keeps him at arm’s length?
The Vice Presidency was an increasingly important position, I think a lot of it is that Garner and FDR disagreed on a lot of issues and Byrnes would definitely be an improvement as a moderately pro-New Deal southerner.
 
The main problem with James Byrnes is that he is a covert to the Episcopalian Church and leaving the Catholic Church.
That was a big No-No to a significant faction of the Democratic Party who felt that Byrnes left the Church to further his political ambitions.
AIUI, the city bosses were more worried about the effect of Byrnes on the rapidly growing black vote in their cities.
Motive makes a big difference. If James Byrnes switched churches because his wife is Methodist and Episcopalian makes a good compromise church, that’s one thing. If he left because Protestant plays better than Catholic in South Carolina, that’s an entirely different matter.

And that wouldn’t be well-received in Irish, Italian, Czech, and Polish communities in the North. And other communities with substantial Catholic representation.
 
Pro-civil rights people purged with the wallacites/progressives during early postwar purging/mccarthyism. If it happensi n ttl which isn't all that likely the 1990s after communism falls or 2030s after a large chunk of boomers die are the most plausible times. US is way more socially conservatism in 2024.
 
What happens 10 years later, in Brown? Byrnes was a segregationist, but not of the Barnett, Maddox variety. He tried to equalize separate schools. Would we have a tougher lawyer for Justice Marshall to fight with? Davis is brilliant, but an old man, and honorable despite being very wrong on this issue.
Byrnes kicked the ball to Kansas by requesting they file an amicus curiae brief when the NAACP originally sued South Carolina so the Brown decision might be against South Carolina ITTL. By then though Byrnes definitely wouldn’t be president.
Frequently here at our AH site, we focus on equal rights merely in terms of the Brown v. Board of Education (1954) Supreme Court decision.

I personally think Jackie Robinson playing baseball and/or especially President Truman desegregating the armed services may have been equally important.

 
the 1990s after communism falls or 2030s after a large chunk of boomers die are the most plausible times. US is way more socially conservatism in 2024.
So, a very late equal rights movement?

To me, I find neither pure utopia nor pure dystopia all that interesting. So, maybe a much later but better civil rights movement? It’s your choice of course.

But I encourage you to kind of “movie preview” it with 1 or 2 scenes. :)
 
The Vice Presidency was an increasingly important position,
This is why I’m a member of AH, because I don’t see it this way at all!

Compared to a strong number 2 person in a business setting, a chief lieutenant as far as getting things done, or in a medical setting such as running a hospital, most Vice-Presidents have been nothing. Most VPs have been very much shunted to the side by their President.

• maybe because picking a VP is a thrown-together decision at the last minute?

• maybe because the VP is thinking about his own political future?

For example, George Bush, Sr., was way under-utilized as Reagan’s VP, and Al Gore was under-utilized as Clinton’s VP.

Stopping with President George Bush, Jr. and VP Dick Cheney (2001 - 2009), in order to avoid current politics, only this last one was a powerful person. And Dick Cheney did not have future political aspirations and therefore could put his whole being into helping the administration succeed.

* By the way, I’m a center-left liberal and Democrat. But I still think the Bush-Cheney example is a healthy model of what a VP could be.
 
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So, a very late equal rights movement?

To me, I find neither pure utopia nor pure dystopia all that interesting. So, maybe a much later but better civil rights movement? It’s your choice of course.

But I encourage you to kind of “movie preview” it with 1 or 2 scenes. :)
It'd be no better than OTL. Actually it'd probably go worse than OTL assuming immigration/movement of factory jobs overseas or to robots so even less economic opportunity. to work with

If you want a smoother civil rights project, probably have Dewey win in 1948 and be a two-termer, locking in a more liberalminded GOP. Even this is broadly on OTL's timeframe for civil rights. If you want a better than OTL civil rights movemnt successful two-term dewey in 1944 or 1948 is your way to go.
 
Motive makes a big difference. If James Byrnes switched churches because his wife is Methodist and Episcopalian makes a good compromise church, that’s one thing. If he left because Protestant plays better than Catholic in South Carolina, that’s an entirely different matter.

And that wouldn’t be well-received in Irish, Italian, Czech, and Polish communities in the North. And other communities with substantial Catholic representation.
He married a divorced woman
 
If you want a smoother civil rights project, probably have Dewey win in 1948 and be a two-termer, locking in a more liberalminded GOP.


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The breakwater event seems to be 1964. When President Lyndon Johnson signed a Civil Rights Bill and Senator Barry Goldwater was against it.


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Goldwater won only five southern states plus his home state of Arizona.

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If the Republican Party could have kept 30% of the African-American vote, I think that would have been better for both equal rights and the country overall.
 
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