WI: Otto III, Holy Roman Emperor (980-1002) survived?

[Midas]

Alright, so I fished through a few threads and found a bit of discussion on Otto III. He fits real nicely into my 1000 PoD and I wanted to hear some speculation on the effects of him not dying of malaria, poisoning, murder, whatever.

He seems like a very interesting character. According to the wiki, he wanted to adjust the center of the Holy Roman Empire to Rome, to create a more theocratic government and to unite the old lands of the Roman Empire- particularly with Byzantium. It also says he managed to get a Byzantine Princess (Zoe?) to sail over to him, but died before the marriage could happen.

Well, what if he does marry this princess and doesn't survive? Would he have the capacity to hold onto Rome, expand south- perhaps even take up the Byzantine throne?

I'm looking for more long-term oriented speculation if possible. The biggest thread I found was one on a Byzantine-HRE merger, and it seemed like the consensus in that thread was that if Otto III tried to unite the two states militarily it would be a much earlier Fourth Crusade, while diplomatically it was precarious as some people thought he would never be accepted in Byzantium for being a German- while others thought that if he were accepted, the German princes would revolt.

Anyway, seems like someone very interesting, any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Don_Giorgio]

If Otto marries Zoe and have a son then this boy could inherit the Byzantine throne after the deaths of his great-uncle Basil II and grandfather Constantine VIII in 1025 and 1028 respectively...
The problem is that Byzantine nobility wouldnt have accepted him as emperor since he would be considered half-barbarian to them... My guess is that if he is proclaimed Emperor around 1028-1029 he would face rebellions from Byzantine Lords causing mayhem to the Empire thus ruining everything his uncle Basil II had struggled for...

 

[Basileus Giorgios]

I don't think Otto III ever will gain the Byzantine throne, though if he has a son fairly after the 1002 POD, that son has a very strong claim to the ERE following the death of his grandfather Constantine VIII. So perhaps if Otto sires a number of sons, one will become Emperor of the West, and the other will become Emperor of the East.

I'm unsure where this idea of an "earlier Fourth Crusade" has come from, I certainly can't see a bunch of German mercenaries proving of any threat whatsoever to Constantinople in the eleventh century.

I think in the West, we'd see Otto III (himself half Byzantine) doing his utmost to centralise the HRE around the person of the Emperor. It's quite likely that the Emperor will attempt to make Rome a permanent capital of the Empire. The Papacy will be sidelined, and will likely be unable to escape from this Imperial dominance. A more Italian based HRE means the conversion of Eastern Europe to Catholicism may take place more slowly, or Orthodoxy might take hold. Instead, I predict we'd see conflict with the Muslims over Sicily and Sardinia, with Christian raids on North Africa and Islamic raids on Italy.

In short, this scenario sees the HRE become a Byzantine style absolute monarchy, the Byzantine Empire becoming much more influential in Western politics (as well as perhaps seeing a continuation of the Macedonian Dynasty), a weaker Catholic Church, and a more active Christian presence in the Western Mediterranean.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

Indeed, the central items on his agenda were strengthening the position of the Emperor, and debasing the Pope to a high Imperial official. The method as well as motivation to achieve that consists in the example of Roman Emperors; but Otto may have considered rather Constantine the Great than his contemporaries.

The best thing he could realistically achieve about Constantinople would be an (implicit) acknowledgement as "the other legitimate (Western) Roman Emperor" - and that would be not too low a goal. Nevertheless, I think it may be achievable, at least for some time.
And I don't think Otto really has dreamed of gaining Constantinople - not a daytime, at least.

And beside all Roman adventures and ancient idols - Otto was still a Saxon, who will not forget about the North in favour of the Mediterranean to the extent Frederic II. would do two centuries later.

 

[Basileus Giorgios]

And beside all Roman adventures and ancient idols - Otto was still a Saxon, who will not forget about the North in favour of the Mediterranean to the extent Frederic II. would do two centuries later.

Otto was only half Saxon- his mother was a Byzantine princess, the niece of an Emperor, even if not a true member of the Macedonian Dynasty. Any sons produced by Otto and Zoe will therefore be more Byzantine than Saxon, which will have a massive influence on things.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

Otto was only half Saxon- his mother was a Byzantine princess, the niece of an Emperor, even if not a true member of the Macedonian Dynasty. Any sons produced by Otto and Zoe will therefore be more Byzantine than Saxon, which will have a massive influence on things.

True, but I was talking about socialization rather than genetics or dynastic claims.
Frederic II. - if that distant comparison is allowed - was also Swabian to a large degree, but in cultural terms, he was mostly Sicilian.
Now Otto was an intelligent, urbane, and imaginative man, well aware of his claims and chances.
But so was Frederic ...

 

[Midas]

Here's the link to what I was referencing before (with regards to the Fourth Crusade question). I'm impartial to that idea: I'm thinking you are all more knowledgeable on this subject, though I've been reading more and more and can hopefully participate better as I verse myself on the topic .

Otto was only half Saxon- his mother was a Byzantine princess, the niece of an Emperor, even if not a true member of the Macedonian Dynasty. Any sons produced by Otto and Zoe will therefore be more Byzantine than Saxon, which will have a massive influence on things.

Indeed, Otto's mother was a Byznantine Armenian: Theopanu. However, unlike Zoe she was not of the direct imperial line and gave Otto III no realistic immediate claims on the throne. A marriage to Zoe is far more direct and puts him directly into a line of succession. Some of the articles I've read, and as well on wiki, make some references to Otto essentially being a Romanophile. He was even introducing Greek into the court.

Let's go with this: just as in OTL Basil II dies childless and Constantine VII's rule isn't long. IOTL, Zoe married Romanos III and became fairly politically involved; it's not a stretch to think it might happen in Italy instead. She was rumored to be infertile during her time as Romanos' consort, but you know court politics: it's hard to tell who's at fault. If we assume she can only sire Otto III one son (we'll just call him Otto IV)- what happens?

Would Otto IV technically inherit both Empires; I doubt there will be no Byznantine claimants. Would this mean war between the two Empires (though the Byzantine one will be significantly more fractured). If Otto IV manages to get a hold on the Byzantine Empire (and it means likely keeping them independent), how would the German princes react? My gut feeling would be in his long absence to the south and lack of interest in fighting the Wends and Poles, they'd be near rebellion.

 

[Basileus Giorgios]

Let's go with this: just as in OTL Basil II dies childless and Constantine VII's rule isn't long. IOTL, Zoe married Romanos III and became fairly politically involved; it's not a stretch to think it might happen in Italy instead. She was rumored to be infertile during her time as Romanos' consort, but you know court politics: it's hard to tell who's at fault. If we assume she can only sire Otto III one son (we'll just call him Otto IV)- what happens?

Would Otto IV technically inherit both Empires; I doubt there will be no Byznantine claimants. Would this mean war between the two Empires (though the Byzantine one will be significantly more fractured). If Otto IV manages to get a hold on the Byzantine Empire (and it means likely keeping them independent), how would the German princes react? My gut feeling would be in his long absence to the south and lack of interest in fighting the Wends and Poles, they'd be near rebellion.

Zoe was infertile at the time of her marriage to Romanus, because she was about fifty years old by that point. Otto III should face none of the problems that Romanus and Zoe did in fathering children, and his court will be spared the rather bizarre antics Zoe did get up to in OTL once she became Empress and was desperate to fall pregnant.

No, Otto IV technically would NOT inherit both Empires, because Byzantium never operated dynastic politics, the Emperor was theoretically still chosen by the Senate and the People of Rome (or Constantinople here, but anyway). Unless therefore Otto IV is physically present in Constantinople at the death of his grandfather Constantine, he is very unlikely to be able to sieze the throne. What's most likely to happen is a brief civil war, followed by a soldier establishing himself as Emperor- a good candidate for this is George Maniakes. Otto IV, meanwhile, as a member of the Macedonian House, will probably be able to "approve" his new Eastern colleague, but is unlikely to get a sniff of power himself. Perhaps he'll demand an Imperial princess (let's say Maniakes' sister?) in exchange for a policy of non-interference. Otto III though, was only in his twenties when he died, so he could easily still be on the throne in 1028.

 

[Mikestone8]

No, Otto IV technically would NOT inherit both Empires, because Byzantium never operated dynastic politics, the Emperor was theoretically still chosen by the Senate and the People of Rome (or Constantinople here, but anyway). Unless therefore Otto IV is physically present in Constantinople at the death of his grandfather Constantine, he is very unlikely to be able to sieze the throne.

Though a descendant might.

After the disaster at Manzikert, all the Asian provinces were lost, and the Balkan ones were invaded by Robert Guiscard, the Norman Duke of Apulia, who failed only because he had to return to fend off an attack by Emperor Henry IV. If Otto and his heirs retain control of Italy, and the Normans bever get established there, it might be a later Otto who invades, perhaps succesfully.

 

[Basileus Giorgios]

I know about Manzikert, my friend. But the logistics of Guiscard's invasion are rather more complicated than you make out, chiefly due to the fact that Constantinople has MASSIVE WALLS. The importance of these MASSIVE WALLS cannot be overstated, they saved the Empire many times when otherwise it would have been a walkover for enemies. If Symeon the Great and all the armies of the Ummayad Caliphate can't break through the MASSIVE WALLS, then I have my doubts Guiscard could.

Which, in turn, makes a later invasion by a hypothetical Otto V rather unlikely, especially after butterflies have taken effect. Byzantium is by a long way the most powerful Christian state at this time in history, indeed, it's one of the premier powers of world. In a war, the Byzantine Emperor has at his disposal all of the resources of Anatolia and the Balkans, and leads a professional army that continues to boast the fearsome Roman traditions of discipline and order. By contrast, any force from the West has to confront hugely extended supply lines, irregular troops dragged thousands of miles from home, and restless aristocrats eager to break ranks at any moment. These constraints are what makes me say that if Otto III sires only a single son, that son will not be able to hold the thrones of both East and West by force.

If, however, there's another son, who happens to be visiting his grandfather Constantine in the later 1020s, then everything changes...

 

[Midas]

If, however, there's another son, who happens to be visiting his grandfather Constantine in the later 1020s, then everything changes...

Sorry, I'm pretty dense: what would change? Honest question not a scathing remark, I'm not overly familiar with the 1000-'30 period in Byzantine politics.