WI: Second Arab Siege of Constantinople (717-718) succeeds

[Nivek]

Fine, but to the extent it did slow muslim expansion into Europe it was still a lot more important than the oft-more-cited Battle of Tours (732).

Regardless wakobear is very expert on naval matters but something I would say... France is irrelevant vs the richer Italy and tolouse was to punish the double crossing odo so here the focus would be South France and then Italy, the Austrasia and neustrasia would be secondary

 

[funnyhat]

Fine, but to the extent it did slow muslim expansion into Europe it was still a lot more important than the oft-more-cited Battle of Tours (732).

Yeah, no. This is still an Arab-wank that borders on ASB.

Also:

Contrary to popular belief, the Battle of Tours is actually completely meaningless. The force that Martel fought there was a raiding party. Their sole objective was to plunder Tours for loot and then run all the way back to al-Andalus, and NOT, in any possible way, to conquer.

I think it is difficult to say for sure how important any individual battle was in these wars. There is a lot of propaganda and revisionism to sort through. A battle could also mean different things to the two armies fighting. In any event, Charles Martel's position was certainly strengthened in the years that followed Tours/Poitiers and the Franks gained the initiative in their conflict with the Arabs, gradually reconquering Septimania.

Even if only intended as a raid, it was quite a disastrous battle for the Arabs, costing them heavy casualties including their commander Abd-al-Rahman (who had been the governor of Al-Andalus).

 

[Nivek]

I think it is difficult to say for sure how important any individual battle was in these wars. There is a lot of propaganda and revisionism to sort through. A battle could also mean different things to the two armies fighting. In any event, Charles Martel's position was certainly strengthened in the years that followed and the Franks gained the initiative in their conflict with the Arabs, gradually reconquering Septimania.

I think as easy Charles the usurper could have gotten killed but that was secondary against the siege of Toulouse against Odo