Great update! Happy to see RFK win. Question is John B. Anderson and the National Unity Party going to factor in the future? Be very interesting if oh I don’t know day in the 1984 elections National Unity beats out the GOP for second place (forcing the Republican establishment to go on a soul searching mission yet again)?
Blue Skies in Camelot (Continued): An Alternate 80s and Beyond
- Thread starter President_Lincoln
- Start date
As per OTL, Sandra Day O'Connor served as assistant Attorney General of Arizona from 1965 to 1969. She then went on to serve in the Arizona Senate. As of 1980, she has risen to the position of State Senate Majority Leader, the first female to be elected to that role in any state. She may be mulling a run for Governor.
Now that we are looking at the election in our collective rear-view mirror, I can share that had Udall been the nominee in 1980 here, I believe he would also have narrowly defeated Reagan. He would have had the incumbent's advantage, though it would be mitigated somewhat by lingering questions surrounding his diagnosis.
This is definitely a possibility as the timeline moves forward.
Current Status of the Fab Four - 1980
Apologies! I must have missed this one.
ITTL, the Beatles split up in December 1980. The band members have not ruled out the possibility of reuniting in the future. They are simply burnt out and feel the need to explore some independent projects and so forth. As for the members...
John Lennon - After divorcing from his first wife, Cynthia Powell, in 1968 (as per OTL), Lennon was involved with actress Ursula Andress for a while. The two parted in the early 1970s, however. In 1973, Lennon began dating May Pang, a Chinese-American music executive (with whom he famously shared what he called his "Lost Weekend" IOTL). ITTL, the pair married in 1975. As of 1980, they are still married, and are raising their four year old son, Brian Pang Lennon.
Paul McCartney - Married his longtime girlfriend, British actress Jane Asher, in 1968. Together, the pair have three children: Mary; Molly; and James. Though still an active performer and songwriter, McCartney is also deeply involved in the day to day activity of Apple Corps.
George Harrison - Married English model and photographer Pattie Boyd in 1966 (as per OTL). Unfortunately, just like IOTL, their marriage was made difficult by their repeated infidelities and other personal issues. The "last straw" was Pattie learning that George had carried on an affair with Ringo's first wife, Maureen. Harrison and Boyd divorced in 1977. As of 1980, Harrison is single and focusing on his practicing of Yoga and his other spiritual beliefs. He has quit smoking, as "his body is a temple", according to his beliefs.
Ringo Starr - After divorcing first wife Maureen in 1975 (again, both parties involved were serial adulterers against each other), Ringo met and subsequently dated English actress Caroline Munro, famous for her roles in horror films by Hammer and others. The two will be married in 1981. Ringo has three children (as per OTL): Zak; Jason; and Lee. All of these were with Maureen before their divorce.
Generally which part of the 4 parts of the Democrats do the African-Americans gravitate to ITTL or the LGBTQ+ community?
Hey great little recap of the Beatles. To be honest I'd forgotten about them since we've been focusing so much on the election and the middle east and what's happening in foreign policy so it was good to be reminded about them.
Question: since breaking up how are each of their individual songs doing? Are they as popular or are they struggling to compete with all the other bands and solo artists?
The Beatles has split up on December 8th, 1980 ITTL (The same day Lennon was killed by Mark David Chapman IOTL). They'll probably reunite along with Elvis Presley, to collaborate with Michael Jackson with his iconic album Thriller in 1982 ITTL. They'll advice, help, and guide Jackson on how to handle his success and fame as he was about to dominate the music industry in the 80's as IOTL and ITTL. Then they'll appear on Live Aid later in 1985 ITTL to make an iconic musical performance in history alongside with Queen like IOTL. Generation X (Born between 1964-1980) would be one of their new listeners and audiences, they might appear on MTV Unplugged by the Late 1980's ITTL. By the 1990's ITTL, they're about to plan on making the 3-Part Anthology Album and would take over music charts after it was released in 1995 as IOTL.
John Lennon's marriage to May Pang in 1975 and having his second son Brian later in 1976, was something of a new perspective for me now that we prevent him from meeting Yoko Ono IOTL. His relationship with Ursula Andress between 1968-1972 didn't last long either. We don't know whether Lennon is in London or New York as of 1980 ITTL, I just hope that his family is in London to avoid Chapman in New York.
Paul McCartney's marriage to Jane Asher in 1969 to be exact has been one that I imagine for a long time, going on its 11th Year as of 1980 ITTL was truly a successful marriage indeed, along with their children Mary, Molly, and James (not knowing how old are they now as of 1980 ITTL). Good thing that McCartney is leading Apple Corps along with their band's manager Brian Epstein and music producer George Martin as of 1980 ITTL. Now wondering on what's happening to Linda Eastman as of 1980 ITTL now that they weren't married like IOTL.
George Harrison's marriage to Patti Boyd for 11 Years (1966-1977) has a beautiful beginning, but ended with low note due to their infidelities. They didn't even have any children during their time of marriage, now I wonder if they'll meet with Olivia Trinidad as IOTL. Good thing that Harrison ended up his smoking habits by practicing yoga and his other spiritual beliefs like Hinduism.
Ringo Starr's marriage to Maureen Cox was also ended with a low note due also to their infidelities, while also having their wonderful children with Zak, Jason, and Lee. His second marriage to Caroline Munro soon on 1981 ITTL (and not Barbara Bach IOTL), would also reunite with his band members in complete attendance somehow.
John Lennon's marriage to May Pang in 1975 and having his second son Brian later in 1976, was something of a new perspective for me now that we prevent him from meeting Yoko Ono IOTL. His relationship with Ursula Andress between 1968-1972 didn't last long either. We don't know whether Lennon is in London or New York as of 1980 ITTL, I just hope that his family is in London to avoid Chapman in New York.
Paul McCartney's marriage to Jane Asher in 1969 to be exact has been one that I imagine for a long time, going on its 11th Year as of 1980 ITTL was truly a successful marriage indeed, along with their children Mary, Molly, and James (not knowing how old are they now as of 1980 ITTL). Good thing that McCartney is leading Apple Corps along with their band's manager Brian Epstein and music producer George Martin as of 1980 ITTL. Now wondering on what's happening to Linda Eastman as of 1980 ITTL now that they weren't married like IOTL.
George Harrison's marriage to Patti Boyd for 11 Years (1966-1977) has a beautiful beginning, but ended with low note due to their infidelities. They didn't even have any children during their time of marriage, now I wonder if they'll meet with Olivia Trinidad as IOTL. Good thing that Harrison ended up his smoking habits by practicing yoga and his other spiritual beliefs like Hinduism.
Ringo Starr's marriage to Maureen Cox was also ended with a low note due also to their infidelities, while also having their wonderful children with Zak, Jason, and Lee. His second marriage to Caroline Munro soon on 1981 ITTL (and not Barbara Bach IOTL), would also reunite with his band members in complete attendance somehow.
Last edited:
For RFK's cabinet, given that there's a desire by the American public to be more "tough" on the Soviets, I would like to suggest replacing George Ball with a certain university professor and hawk who's active in Democratic politics, named Jeane Kirkpatrick, as Secretary of State. Not only would her appointment probably satisfy the warhawks, but it could also won major cookie points with feminists as the first female SecState.
Additionally, I would also like to suggest Paul Wolfowitz or Ben Wattenberg as Secretary of Defense, if only to further beef up the image of the incoming RFK administration as "tough" on Commies.
Additionally, I would also like to suggest Paul Wolfowitz or Ben Wattenberg as Secretary of Defense, if only to further beef up the image of the incoming RFK administration as "tough" on Commies.
Last edited:
I'd like to suggest George Kennan as either UN ambassador or National Secretary Advisory for RFK. I know Kennan is controversial but personally he is my of my favourite American foreign policy thinkers.
Oh Man!
Don't get me wrong, Thriller is a pretty good album on its own IOTL. But having both The Beatles and Elvis Presley working with Michael Jackson on his album would make it fucking legendary ITTL.
I hope he's not in New York, Chapman was a creep anyways.
Also hopefully by the time we get to the 90's ITTL, Kurt Cobain, Tupac, and Biggie survives as well, so we can have more Boombap/Old School Hiphop and cool Grunge/Alternative Rock Music by the 2000's ITTL that isn't too heavy or hard to listen to like Nu-Metal, Emo Rock, Crunk or Trap IOTL.
If Bob Ross and Jim Henson survive by the time we arrived to the 90's ITTL, then I have finally found the timeline that I've always wanted when I was a teen growing up in the hoods while rotting my brain in special education.
(I could just imagine me in a hybrid timeline that crosses ITTL and Geronimo having a sleepover while watching John Lennon, Michael Jackson, Kurt Cobain, Elvis Presley, La Bouche, Capitan Jack, Biggie, and Tupac duking it out with Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Katy Perry, Beyoncé, Taylor Swift, Lady Gaga, Rihanna, Hayley Williams, or whatever Pop Artist exists in the Geronimo Timeline by the 2010's all dueling it out on both TV and YouTube).
That would be fucking epic!
Last edited:
See, now you're speaking my language genius! We universally agree that Michael Jackson's Thriller in 1982 IOTL was one of the most iconic, important, and immaculate music albums of all time. But my suggestion on The Beatles and Elvis Presley collaborating with Jackson on his album would really make infinity times better ITTL. I also suggest that The Beatles and Elvis Presley advice, guide, and help Jackson on how to handle his success, career, and fame as he was about to be one of the greatest artists of the decade as IOTL and ITTL.
I hope Lennon's Family at London to celebrate their Christmas by 1980 ITTL. Mark David Chapman should get some medical help or might get arrested earlier for his inappropriate behavior or attitude towards the community.
Don't worry genius, their untimely deaths wouldn't happened ITTL by the time we arrived in the 90's ITTL.
With the passing of The Universal Healthcare by President Udall in 1977 ITTL, Bob Ross and Jim Henson would get all the medical help they need and live longer ITTL. The Classic Rock Singers vs. The Modern Rock Singers was something we all need to see, and a music battle for the ages indeed genius.
Just as a fun thought exercise, here's my ranking/thoughts on how I think each of the "big five" Democratic candidates in 1980 would have done against Reagan:
1. Kennedy - I truly believe that RFK was the strongest candidate (besides possibly President Udall) that the Democrats could have run. He had the most name recognition of any Democrat in the country. His leadership ability, as demonstrated both in his brother's administration and in the Senate, is unparalleled. While yes, he is rather progressive for most Americans, his devout religiosity and moral authority make him well-respected by conservatives as well. Kennedy could also match Reagan in the charisma department, a tough sell for several of the other candidates.
2. Bentsen - As the incumbent Vice President, Bentsen would have had as much of the incumbent's advantage as you could get without President Udall himself running. With a strong base of support in the South and strong appeal for moderates and independents, I think it would have been tough for Reagan to paint Bentsen as a "tax and spend liberal". That said, Bentsen probably would not have done much to excite the Democratic base. He would have needed to pick someone special as his running mate to fire them up if he wanted to beat Reagan. Mondale would have probably been the most likely, as an olive branch to the liberals.
3. Mondale - Well-spoken and well-liked, Fritz nevertheless suffers here from a lack of nationwide exposure outside of the Midwest. Having never served as Vice President ITTL, Mondale is, to many Americans, just another liberal, union-oriented Senator. Mondale probably could have beaten Reagan, but it would be a very, very tight race. I imagine Mondale would have probably chosen Bentsen as his running mate, assuming the VP would want to remain on the ticket with Fritz as he did with RFK.
4. Carter - ITTL, Carter does not benefit from any "outsider" status as he did in 1976 IOTL. Here, he's been a Senator since the mid-seventies, and a leading member of the Communitarian wing of the Democratic Party. If Carter had somehow clinched the nomination, he definitely would have needed a progressive running mate to placate the base. He would have also needed to reconcile with President Udall, as all throughout Udall's term, Carter had been one of his fiercest critics from within the party. Carter viewed Udall as his chief rival, after all. Could he have beaten Reagan? Hard to say.
5. Brown - Nothing against the man. I think "Governor Moonbeam" had his strengths and weaknesses as a national candidate. That said, I think he would have been the weakest candidate the Democrats might have nominated in 1980 here. His youth and image as friendly to the "hippies" and the "New Left" make him very easy to paint as out of touch by the Republicans. Besides, Brown's mercurial personality would have contrasted harshly with Reagan's upbeat, sunny optimism. I can only imagine that debates between the two would have been strongly in Reagan's favor. Brown would have to convince both the liberals and communitarians that he could be their candidate. That's a tall order. I think Reagan wins over Brown, albeit narrowly.
Generally speaking, the LGBTQ+ community favor the liberal and progressive wings of the party, committed as they are to change and social progress.
The African-American community is split between the various factions. While Black Democrats are less likely than their white or Hispanic counterparts to describe themselves as "liberal" when polled, their views are largely in agreement with the rest of the party as a whole. Again, speaking in generalities, the Black community reports higher levels of religiosity and higher approval numbers for religious institutions than their fellow Democrats of other races. Unsurprisingly, Black Democrats are also more likely to view racism as a major issue in society, regardless of their positions on other political issues.
Thank you! Since the band has only just broken up (Dec. 1980), I'll answer this question in future updates. Stay tuned.
Cheers!
Interesting suggestions... I don't want to spoil too much before the transition update. But I will say that like his older brother, RFK considers himself an "idealist without illusions". He is more likely to take a realist view of foreign affairs than say... President Udall.
Just as a fun thought exercise, here's my ranking/thoughts on how I think each of the "big five" Democratic candidates in 1980 would have done against Reagan:
1. Kennedy - I truly believe that RFK was the strongest candidate (besides possibly President Udall) that the Democrats could have run. He had the most name recognition of any Democrat in the country. His leadership ability, as demonstrated both in his brother's administration and in the Senate, is unparalleled. While yes, he is rather progressive for most Americans, his devout religiosity and moral authority make him well-respected by conservatives as well. Kennedy could also match Reagan in the charisma department, a tough sell for several of the other candidates.
2. Bentsen - As the incumbent Vice President, Bentsen would have had as much of the incumbent's advantage as you could get without President Udall himself running. With a strong base of support in the South and strong appeal for moderates and independents, I think it would have been tough for Reagan to paint Bentsen as a "tax and spend liberal". That said, Bentsen probably would not have done much to excite the Democratic base. He would have needed to pick someone special as his running mate to fire them up if he wanted to beat Reagan. Mondale would have probably been the most likely, as an olive branch to the liberals.
3. Mondale - Well-spoken and well-liked, Fritz nevertheless suffers here from a lack of nationwide exposure outside of the Midwest. Having never served as Vice President ITTL, Mondale is, to many Americans, just another liberal, union-oriented Senator. Mondale probably could have beaten Reagan, but it would be a very, very tight race. I imagine Mondale would have probably chosen Bentsen as his running mate, assuming the VP would want to remain on the ticket with Fritz as he did with RFK.
4. Carter - ITTL, Carter does not benefit from any "outsider" status as he did in 1976 IOTL. Here, he's been a Senator since the mid-seventies, and a leading member of the Communitarian wing of the Democratic Party. If Carter had somehow clinched the nomination, he definitely would have needed a progressive running mate to placate the base. He would have also needed to reconcile with President Udall, as all throughout Udall's term, Carter had been one of his fiercest critics from within the party. Carter viewed Udall as his chief rival, after all. Could he have beaten Reagan? Hard to say.
5. Brown - Nothing against the man. I think "Governor Moonbeam" had his strengths and weaknesses as a national candidate. That said, I think he would have been the weakest candidate the Democrats might have nominated in 1980 here. His youth and image as friendly to the "hippies" and the "New Left" make him very easy to paint as out of touch by the Republicans. Besides, Brown's mercurial personality would have contrasted harshly with Reagan's upbeat, sunny optimism. I can only imagine that debates between the two would have been strongly in Reagan's favor. Brown would have to convince both the liberals and communitarians that he could be their candidate. That's a tall order. I think Reagan wins over Brown, albeit narrowly.
Generally speaking, the LGBTQ+ community favor the liberal and progressive wings of the party, committed as they are to change and social progress.
The African-American community is split between the various factions. While Black Democrats are less likely than their white or Hispanic counterparts to describe themselves as "liberal" when polled, their views are largely in agreement with the rest of the party as a whole. Again, speaking in generalities, the Black community reports higher levels of religiosity and higher approval numbers for religious institutions than their fellow Democrats of other races. Unsurprisingly, Black Democrats are also more likely to view racism as a major issue in society, regardless of their positions on other political issues.
Thank you! Since the band has only just broken up (Dec. 1980), I'll answer this question in future updates. Stay tuned.
Cheers!
Interesting suggestions... I don't want to spoil too much before the transition update. But I will say that like his older brother, RFK considers himself an "idealist without illusions". He is more likely to take a realist view of foreign affairs than say... President Udall.
By realist view on foreign affairs, you mean?
"Realism" is one of the major schools of thought on international relations. It refers to a policy of a nation pursuing its own interests, rather than some moral or philosophical ideal. Generally, it favors maintaining a balance of power. While RFK will definitely still make human rights the centerpiece of his foreign policy, he's going to return to a mindset of containment toward the Soviets and communism, rather than the détente favored by Romney, Bush, and Udall.
Gotcha. Will wait to see who you have in mind for his cabinet nominees.