Blue Skies in Camelot (Continued): An Alternate 80s and Beyond

[Nishimura89]

Yeah well he better like the Senate cause that's as far as he's gonna get. He'll probably be the timelines Mitch McConnell

You could say a lot of things about Don Rumsfeld, but the man is certainly very intelligent. Unfortunately, he's also very ambitious and will do whatever it takes to get his way. I think we cannot discard the possibility of him aspiring to be the next occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Speaking of Don Rumsfeld, Mr. President @President_Lincoln , what is Rumsfeld's political position? Is he a Goldwater Republican, a Nixon Republican, or a moderate Romney Republican? Like Dick Cheney, I could never peg his position.

 

[PRM]

You could say a lot of things about Don Rumsfeld, but the man is certainly very intelligent. Unfortunately, he's also very ambitious and will do whatever it takes to get his way. I think we cannot discard the possibility of him aspiring to be the next occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Speaking of Don Rumsfeld, Mr. President @President_Lincoln , what is Rumsfeld's political position? Is he a Goldwater Republican, a Nixon Republican, or a moderate Romney Republican? Like Dick Cheney, I could never peg his position.

I think he's a mix between a Nixon and Romney Republican

 

[President_Lincoln]

@President_Lincoln since RFK won and the United States most likely won't become as Conservative as it did in the 80s in OTL, do you think there's a chance Lou Grant won't be canceled because of Asner's liberalism?[/USER]

It's possible. But then again, IOTL, CBS denied that the cancellation had anything to do with Asner's politics, citing a fall in ratings for the last two seasons as their primary rationale. We shall have to see when we get to future pop culture updates.

You could say a lot of things about Don Rumsfeld, but the man is certainly very intelligent. Unfortunately, he's also very ambitious and will do whatever it takes to get his way. I think we cannot discard the possibility of him aspiring to be the next occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Speaking of Don Rumsfeld, Mr. President @President_Lincoln , what is Rumsfeld's political position? Is he a Goldwater Republican, a Nixon Republican, or a moderate Romney Republican? Like Dick Cheney, I could never peg his position.

I agree with your assessment of the man.

ITTL, Rumsfeld has already had a long and successful career in Washington pre-1980. First elected to the US House of Representatives in 1962, he was then reelected three times before being nominated to finish Everett Dirksen's term in the Senate when Dirksen passed away in September 1969. Elected to a Senate term in his own right in 1974, Rumsfeld then managed to repeat the feat in 1980, despite hailing from a state (Illinois) that overwhelmingly favored Robert Kennedy for President. In addition to his new position as Minority Whip, Rumsfeld serves as the ranking Republican on the Senate's Armed Services Committee. This position has helped establish him as, arguably, the leading GOP expert on military issues. This too at a time when national defense is becoming an increasingly important campaign issue...

Though he might not identify with the term personally, Senator Rumsfeld's political ideology can probably best be described as neoconservatism. Per Wikipedia: "Neoconservatives typically advocate the unilateral promotion of democracy and interventionism in international affairs, grounded in a militaristic philosophy of 'peace through strength.' They are known for espousing disdain for communism and political radicalism."

To call Rumsfeld a "hawk" would be a dramatic understatement. ITTL, Rumsfeld was one of the leading voices against President Udall's proposed Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty (SALT) and helped to prevent it from being ratified by the Senate. He supports vastly increased military spending and using that beefed up military to enact America's national interest up to and including possible regime change, if necessary.

Domestically, like most Republicans, Rumsfeld generally supports a free market economy and capitalism that is less "restrained" than the post-war liberal consensus. That said, he favors "reducing" the welfare state, rather than eliminating it. Socially, Rumsfeld, a Christian and member of a Congregationalist church, is pro-life and supportive of "traditional family values". He believes strongly, for instance, that marriage is a sacred institution, exclusively meant to be between a man and a woman. He favors "law and order" policies toward crime and ramping up the war on drugs. In 1980, in order to get reelected, Rumsfeld was forced to moderate many of his positions, especially on economic issues. While certainly no liberal, Rumsfeld is unlikely to propose any serious cuts to popular New Deal/New Frontier programs in the foreseeable future.

All this, when taken together, places Senator Rumsfeld somewhere in the middle of TTL's big tent Republican Party. Generally accepting of government spending on "entitlements" like Medicare and Social Security (though he would, of course, like to make "reforms"), he is socially conservative and one of the leading hawks in the Senate. Rumsfeld is hoping to position himself as a Nixon/Reagan hybrid - possessing all the supposed foreign policy chops of the former, as well as the winning smile and charisma of the latter. If this goes according to plan, he might just become the next face of the Republican Party.

 

[PRM]

It's possible. But then again, IOTL, CBS denied that the cancellation had anything to do with Asner's politics, citing a fall in ratings for the last two seasons as their primary rationale. We shall have to see when we get to future pop culture updates.


I agree with your assessment of the man.

ITTL, Rumsfeld has already had a long and successful career in Washington pre-1980. First selected to the US House of Representatives in 1962, he was then reelected three times before being nominated to finish Everett Dirksen's term in the Senate when Dirksen passed away in September 1969. Elected to a Senate term in his own right in 1974, Rumsfeld then managed to repeat the feat in 1980, despite hailing from a state (Illinois) that overwhelmingly favored Robert Kennedy for President. In addition to his new position as Minority Whip, Rumsfeld serves as the ranking Republican on the Senate's Armed Services Committee. This position has helped establish him as, arguably, the leading GOP expert on military issues. This too at a time when national defense is becoming an increasingly important campaign issue...

Though he might not identify with the term personally, Senator Rumsfeld's political ideology can probably best be described as neoconservatism. Per Wikipedia: "Neoconservatives typically advocate the unilateral promotion of democracy and interventionism in international affairs, grounded in a militaristic philosophy of 'peace through strength.' They are known for espousing disdain for communism and political radicalism."

To call Rumsfeld a "hawk" would be a dramatic understatement. ITTL, Rumsfeld was one of the leading voices against President Udall's proposed Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty (SALT) and helped to prevent it from being ratified by the Senate. He supports vastly increased military spending and using that beefed up military to enact America's national interest up to and including possible regime change, if necessary.

Domestically, like most Republicans, Rumsfeld generally supports a free market economy and capitalism that is less "restrained" than the post-war liberal consensus. That said, he favors "reducing" the welfare state, rather than eliminating it. Socially, Rumsfeld, a Christian and member of a Congregationalist church, is pro-life and supportive of "traditional family values". He believes strongly, for instance, that marriage is a sacred institution, exclusively meant to be between a man and a woman. He favors "law and order" policies toward crime and ramping up the war on drugs. In 1980, in order to get reelected, Rumsfeld was forced to moderate many of his positions, especially on economic issues. While certainly no liberal, Rumsfeld is unlikely to propose any serious cuts to popular New Deal/New Frontier programs in the foreseeable future.

All this, when taken together, places Senator Rumsfeld somewhere in the middle of TTL's big tent Republican Party. Generally accepting of government spending on "entitlements" like Medicare and Social Security (though he would, of course, like to make "reforms"), he is socially conservative and one of the leading hawks in the Senate. Rumsfeld is hoping to position himself as a Nixon/Reagan hybrid - possessing all the supposed foreign policy chops of the former, as well as the winning smile and charisma of the latter. If this goes according to plan, he might just become the next face of the Republican Party.

He can try but he's no Nixon. Besides I doubt he's gonna be able to keep his Neo-conservative side hidden for long

 

[President_Lincoln]

Neoconservatism in general is a force on the rise in the Republican party post 1980. Though it is certainly not the only ideology to have its own wing of the party. I'd say the GOP contains the following factions here:

• Liberals - AKA "Romney Republicans". Generally possessing moderate-to-liberal views on domestic issues, similar to those of the late President Romney. The natural successors of the "Eastern Establishment", these are your "country club Republicans" of New England, the Northeast, and the Industrial Midwest. They are very uncommon in the South and West.
• Moderates - Generally conservative-to-moderate on financial issues, but moderate-to-liberal on social issues. These Republicans support tax and spending cuts, but are likely neutral on issues like abortion, if not quite openly pro-choice. Howard Baker, the Senate Minority Leader, is a prime example of this faction.
• Conservatives - Both socially and fiscally conservative, this "Reagan-ite" wing of the party has taken a bit of a shellacking ITTL. After the downfall of the ACP in the early 1970s, the Republicans have become the "refuge" for figures like Strom Thurmond, Senator from South Carolina. Their influence was quite limited throughout the 1970s, however, with both Presidents Romney and Bush falling into the more liberal and moderate camps, respectively. With Reagan at the head of the ticket in 1980, they seemed to, at last, be ascendant. But now, with Reagan defeated, who's to say?
• Libertarians - Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Recently chosen House Minority Leader Jack Kemp belongs in this faction. As does Congressman Ron Paul, of Texas.

 

[Nishimura89]

Neoconservatism in general is a force on the rise in the Republican party post 1980. Though it is certainly not the only ideology to have its own wing of the party. I'd say the GOP contains the following factions here:

• Liberals - AKA "Romney Republicans". Generally possessing moderate-to-liberal views on domestic issues, similar to those of the late President Romney. The natural successors of the "Eastern Establishment", these are your "country club Republicans" of New England, the Northeast, and the Industrial Midwest. They are very uncommon in the South and West.
• Moderates - Generally conservative-to-moderate on financial issues, but moderate-to-liberal on social issues. These Republicans support tax and spending cuts, but are likely neutral on issues like abortion, if not quite openly pro-choice. Howard Baker, the Senate Minority Leader, is a prime example of this faction.
• Conservatives - Both socially and fiscally conservative, this "Reagan-ite" wing of the party has taken a bit of a shellacking ITTL. After the downfall of the ACP in the early 1970s, the Republicans have become the "refuge" for figures like Strom Thurmond, Senator from South Carolina. Their influence was quite limited throughout the 1970s, however, with both Presidents Romney and Bush falling into the more liberal and moderate camps, respectively. With Reagan at the head of the ticket in 1980, they seemed to, at last, be ascendant. But now, with Reagan defeated, who's to say?
• Libertarians - Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Recently chosen House Minority Leader Jack Kemp belongs in this faction. As does Congressman Ron Paul, of Texas.

I must say that the GOP seems like a bigger tent than OTL. As for the Democrats, are they merely divided into Communitarian and the New Frontier wing, or are there any other notable factions within the Dems?

 

[historybuff]

I must say that the GOP seems like a bigger tent than OTL. As for the Democrats, are they merely divided into Communitarian and the New Frontier wing, or are there any other notable factions within the Dems?

Am curious about this myself.

 

[Dragonboy]

Neoconservatism in general is a force on the rise in the Republican party post 1980. Though it is certainly not the only ideology to have its own wing of the party. I'd say the GOP contains the following factions here:

• Liberals - AKA "Romney Republicans". Generally possessing moderate-to-liberal views on domestic issues, similar to those of the late President Romney. The natural successors of the "Eastern Establishment", these are your "country club Republicans" of New England, the Northeast, and the Industrial Midwest. They are very uncommon in the South and West.
• Moderates - Generally conservative-to-moderate on financial issues, but moderate-to-liberal on social issues. These Republicans support tax and spending cuts, but are likely neutral on issues like abortion, if not quite openly pro-choice. Howard Baker, the Senate Minority Leader, is a prime example of this faction.
• Conservatives - Both socially and fiscally conservative, this "Reagan-ite" wing of the party has taken a bit of a shellacking ITTL. After the downfall of the ACP in the early 1970s, the Republicans have become the "refuge" for figures like Strom Thurmond, Senator from South Carolina. Their influence was quite limited throughout the 1970s, however, with both Presidents Romney and Bush falling into the more liberal and moderate camps, respectively. With Reagan at the head of the ticket in 1980, they seemed to, at last, be ascendant. But now, with Reagan defeated, who's to say?
• Libertarians - Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Recently chosen House Minority Leader Jack Kemp belongs in this faction. As does Congressman Ron Paul, of Texas.

Pretty interesting.

 

[President_Lincoln]

I must say that the GOP seems like a bigger tent than OTL. As for the Democrats, are they merely divided into Communitarian and the New Frontier wing, or are there any other notable factions within the Dems?

Progressives - The progressive wing of the Democratic Party draws deeply from the left-populist economic and political philosophies of FDR and his New Deal, as well as JFK and his New Frontier. They are also liberal on cultural and social issues, and believe in Keynesian economics if not outright Social Democracy. President-Elect Kennedy and his predecessor, Mo Udall, are both members of this wing of the party.

Liberals - Essentially a slightly more moderate/centrist version of the progressives. Whereas progressives want rapid social and economic change, liberal Democrats tend to think of themselves as more "pragmatic". They are, on the whole, reformists, who believe that social progress should be slow, and steady. As of 1980, this wing of the party probably comprises the majority of the Democratic base. "Liberal" is also a catch-all term that can describe many individuals with disparate beliefs on this issue or that. Think Walter Mondale. The "new left" of figures like George McGovern also fit here, somewhat. The new left was significantly less influential ITTL.

Moderates - Even more centrist than the liberals, moderates (such as, for instance, Massachusetts Senator Paul Tsongas) support liberal positions on social and cultural issues, but are more in the middle on economic issues. Gary Hart, Al Gore, and other so-called "Atari Democrats" will fall into this category as well, as they emerge onto the national political scene throughout the 1980s.

Communitarians - Also more moderate than the liberals, but in basically the opposite direction. Largely hailing from the South, communitarian Democrats are, in many ways, the heirs to the old mantle of the Southern New Dealer. Supportive of civil rights, but otherwise conservative on social and cultural issues. Largely white, protestant, evangelical, and pro-life, these Democrats hope to "rein in" the social progress advocated for by their fellow Dems.

 

[PRM]

Progressives - The progressive wing of the Democratic Party draws deeply from the left-populist economic and political philosophies of FDR and his New Deal, as well as JFK and his New Frontier. They are also liberal on cultural and social issues, and believe in Keynesian economics if not outright Social Democracy. President-Elect Kennedy and his predecessor, Mo Udall, are both members of this wing of the party.

Liberals - Essentially a slightly more moderate/centrist version of the progressives. Whereas progressives want rapid social and economic change, liberal Democrats tend to think of themselves as more "pragmatic". They are, on the whole, reformists, who believe that social progress should be slow, and steady. As of 1980, this wing of the party probably comprises the majority of the Democratic base. "Liberal" is also a catch-all term that can describe many individuals with disparate beliefs on this issue or that. Think Walter Mondale. The "new left" of figures like George McGovern also fit here, somewhat. The new left was significantly less influential ITTL.

Moderates - Even more centrist than the liberals, moderates (such as, for instance, Massachusetts Senator Paul Tsongas) support liberal positions on social and cultural issues, but are more in the middle on economic issues. Gary Hart, Al Gore, and other so-called "Atari Democrats" will fall into this category as well, as they emerge onto the national political scene throughout the 1980s.

Communitarians - Also more moderate than the liberals, but in basically the opposite direction. Largely hailing from the South, communitarian Democrats are, in many ways, their heir to the old mantle of the Southern New Dealer. Supportive of civil rights, but otherwise conservative on social and cultural issues. Largely white, protestant, evangelical, and pro-life, these Democrats hope to "rein in" the social progress advocated for by their fellow Dems.

well I'd say the Comminitarians are gonna be less than influential from here on out

 

[Nishimura89]

well I'd say the Comminitarians are gonna be less than influential from here on out

Have to disagree somewhat with this. The Communitarian's primary base, the Deep South, is not called the Bible Belt for nothing. Social conservatism is deeply rooted in this region, and it would take decades to wean off its social conservatism. The best strategy for any liberal social activist is to slowly push for changes, tinker around the edges, and wait for a new, more cosmopolitan and open-minded generation to come of age. Until then, the Communitarians would continue to be an influential political force, both within the Democratic Party and nationally.

 

[PRM]

Have to disagree somewhat with this. The Communitarian's primary base, the Deep South, is not called the Bible Belt for nothing. Social conservatism is deeply rooted in this region, and it would take decades to wean off its social conservatism. The best strategy for any liberal social activist is to slowly push for changes, tinker around the edges, and wait for a new, more cosmopolitan and open-minded generation to come of age. Until then, the Communitarians would continue to be an influential political force, both within the Democratic Party and nationally.

Guess we'll see

 

[TheDetailer]

Rumsfeld is hoping to position himself as a Nixon/Reagan hybrid

Yeah I do find that as an interesting alternate history idea where a Republican President is a mix of Nixon and Reagan.

Damn, look at that slick black hair and big glasses. Rumsfeld certainly has a recognisable image at the very least.

 

[President_Lincoln]

Have to disagree somewhat with this. The Communitarian's primary base, the Deep South, is not called the Bible Belt for nothing. Social conservatism is deeply rooted in this region, and it would take decades to wean off its social conservatism. The best strategy for any liberal social activist is to slowly push for changes, tinker around the edges, and wait for a new, more cosmopolitan and open-minded generation to come of age. Until then, the Communitarians would continue to be an influential political force, both within the Democratic Party and nationally.

This is solid analysis, in my opinion. The trade off for keeping the South at least in part in the Democrats' column is that the party will have to, at least in part, cater to the region's social conservatism.

 

[PRM]

This is solid analysis, in my opinion. The trade off for keeping the South at least in part in the Democrats' column is that the party will have to, at least in part, cater to the region's social conservatism.

Hopefully not at the expense of the LGBTQ community or other minorities

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

well I'd say the Comminitarians are gonna be less than influential from here on out

Have to disagree somewhat with this. The Communitarian's primary base, the Deep South, is not called the Bible Belt for nothing. Social conservatism is deeply rooted in this region, and it would take decades to wean off its social conservatism. The best strategy for any liberal social activist is to slowly push for changes, tinker around the edges, and wait for a new, more cosmopolitan and open-minded generation to come of age. Until then, the Communitarians would continue to be an influential political force, both within the Democratic Party and nationally.

This is solid analysis, in my opinion. The trade off for keeping the South at least in part in the Democrats' column is that the party will have to, at least in part, cater to the region's social conservatism.

Ultimately depends on how any given administration is regarding jobs and other bread-and-butter issues, as well as the regular dose of pork for individual states. Most voters (not all of course, but most) will vote primarily with the pocketbook, and as long as the pocketbook is doing nicely then even social conservative voters can be kept on-side by liberals.

 

[President_Lincoln]

Ultimately depends on how any given administration is regarding jobs and other bread-and-butter issues, as well as the regular dose of pork for individual states. Most voters (not all of course, but most) will vote primarily with the pocketbook, and as long as the pocketbook is doing nicely then even social conservative voters can be kept on-side by liberals.

Also an excellent point!

 

[Uniquely Genius]

Since were here in the 1980's Mr. President, what's going on to Sandra Day O'Connor as of 1980 ITTL. IOTL, he was appointed by President Reagan as The First Female Associate Justice of the Supreme Court in 1981. She just passed away a few days ago at the age of 93. RIP Sandra Day O'Connor (1930-2023).

 

[Maxthecat]

Who'd have won, Udall or Reagan?

 

[Nishimura89]

Ultimately depends on how any given administration is regarding jobs and other bread-and-butter issues, as well as the regular dose of pork for individual states. Most voters (not all of course, but most) will vote primarily with the pocketbook, and as long as the pocketbook is doing nicely then even social conservative voters can be kept on-side by liberals.

Also an excellent point!

Another good reason why the Democrats should be more economically nationalist or protectionist. No TTL ratification of NAFTA is one good example.