There is a nuance - namely, China's tendency to gather again every time. If at least there are many "Chinese" nations, you need to start from the time of Qin Shi Huang.
Nobunaga’s Ambition Realized: Dawn of a New Rising Sun
- Thread starter Ambassador Huntsman
- Start date
Keeping in mind that "warring states" periods can last centuries, and that empires that divide in the industrial/modern era tend to remain divided. A Jin-Song split in the late 19th or early 20th (assuming equal strength) is just as likely to carry into the 21st.
Tbf the Ming army is very formidable IOTL and ITTL around this time as they used loads of gunpowder weapons and had a relatively strong cavalry in addition to having a huge manpower reserve. Things can play out either way tho.
Assuming the Internet exists ITTL lmao.
yep it was the qing where China got to be that weak, and at that point Europe's innovating really quickly at the period.
I think the concept of AH at least would exist in Japan
The idea of Nobunaga dying before accomplishing his goals will be similar to Caesar not being assassinated in the West and there are some What Ifs I see people discussing too like if the jurchen did overthrow the Ming or if Japan lost the war against the Spanish Empire in a more devastating way
The idea of Nobunaga dying before accomplishing his goals will be similar to Caesar not being assassinated in the West and there are some What Ifs I see people discussing too like if the jurchen did overthrow the Ming or if Japan lost the war against the Spanish Empire in a more devastating way
lmao imagine how much older Europeans would dislike Japanese influence in their culture through things like anime and literature.
yeah it would
prob it'd show Japan continuing the sengoku period instead of how it went otl.
Probably yeah.
Some elements of Japanese culture will become familiar to Europe down the line so maybe not so much. With Japan beating Spain, though, Europe will be taking an even closer interest at it.
That and 天國春秋 - Spring and Autumn of the Heavenly Kingdom are the most recent ones that I took note of
@Miyako's Song SI and @KnightofTempest's Yuan SI are also ongoing, albeit on pause at the moment
Besides those some of the best China TLs I've seen so far were "Emperor of Heaven" which is a SI on the Qing Prince, "The Mandarin Observer" which is also about the Qing but instead trying to save them in the most plausible way by just making them very lucky and of course "Ex Oriente Lux" which is about a ancient chinese industrialization
There's an entire thread on asian(though not necessarily China) centered TLs by asians
On Alternate history from asian point of view
Here's my quote on that thread with my personal recommendations at the time:
How about a Super India from two thousand years before Christ?
A surviving Indus valley civilization and culture
The TL has some obvious issues with handwavium & grammar issues, but it has a charm to it
The author is from India I believe so I think it fits the thread's intent
Of those from my quote I'd highly encourage checking out "Middle Kingdom - the Story of the Star Dynasty" because of just how unconventional it is since the protagonist is a Islamic China and - gasp! - they're not threated like radioactive waste but as a legit good place to live! And "When China Rules the World" may interest you also if you'd like to see more of Modern China as it is all about their present day counterpart getting everything they wanted and how the world is molded by them becoming the dominant world power, its pretty cool
Edit:
Oof I almost forgot two of my favorite chinese TLs, curse you post-1900!
沒有國民黨就沒有中國, Without the Kuomintang there would be no China, A Republic of China Story
This is a obligatory mention, it is I believe the best work ever done on how a Nationalist Victory in the Chinese Civil War would look like
I'll also mention Axis China, why? Because it is the funniest concept for a ROC TL! The whole premise is that Chiang fights for Germany in WWI and becomes besties with Hitler!
How can you even one up that!
Edit:
Oof I almost forgot two of my favorite chinese TLs, curse you post-1900!
沒有國民黨就沒有中國, Without the Kuomintang there would be no China, A Republic of China Story
This is a obligatory mention, it is I believe the best work ever done on how a Nationalist Victory in the Chinese Civil War would look like
I'll also mention Axis China, why? Because it is the funniest concept for a ROC TL! The whole premise is that Chiang fights for Germany in WWI and becomes besties with Hitler!
How can you even one up that!
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Yeah definitely, it'd be interesting to see European clothing styles and weapons go through a japanisation phase. I could see katana and wakazashi blades be put on western hilts and guards and we'd probably see skirts and yukatas be worn together.
I also do think that Japanese literature would be popular worldwide and Europeans would have a love-hate relationship with Japanese literature depending on the time and circumstance.
Oh, I'm sure that they'll find the clusterfuck that is Taiheiki so confusing.
Chapter 52: Japanese Culture and Society in the Late 16th and Early 17th Centuries
Chapter 52: Japanese Culture and Society in the Late 16th and Early 17th Centuries
In the 50 years after Oda Nobunaga’s ascension as the first daijo-daijin of the Azuchi Daijo-fu, Japan underwent significant changes, from political unification and territorial expansion to commercial globalization and diversification of religion. Beyond these headlines, culture and society in Japan evolved and changed under the new order both from internal and external factors.
Through interactions with China, the concept of the Confucian “four occupations”, or shimin (四民), caste system arrived in Japan during the Nara Period (奈良時代) in the 8th century . Also referred to as “shinokosho” (士農工商). It conceptualized an ideal social structure centered around the principle of productivity, with the samurai class at the top, followed by farmers, artisans, and merchants. Although this social stratification was imposed and made hereditary, many groups in Japan lay outside these 4 tiers. Most importantly, the imperial family, court nobility, and Shinto-Buddhist priesthood were ranked above the samurai. There also existed the burakumin (部落民) group, a bottom caste that lay below the shinokosho and worked in undesirable occupations like executioners and butchers. Therefore, the “four occupations” system was already hardly all-encompassing. The Sengoku period (戦国時代) shook the system as the decentralized, warring nature of Japan enabled social mobility between different classes, particularly with the rising number and importance of the ashigaru, who as infantry often came from the peasant class. The most notable example of this mobility was Oda general and councilor Hashiba Hideyoshi, who was originally a peasant and whose descendants would be high-ranking hereditary vassals of the Oda clan. Additionally, cities like Sakai and Imai-cho (今井町) in Yamato province were run by councils of wealthy merchants as opposed to samurai or the nobility, creating a paradox of the supposedly lower caste running the cities through their wealth.
Through interactions with China, the concept of the Confucian “four occupations”, or shimin (四民), caste system arrived in Japan during the Nara Period (奈良時代) in the 8th century . Also referred to as “shinokosho” (士農工商). It conceptualized an ideal social structure centered around the principle of productivity, with the samurai class at the top, followed by farmers, artisans, and merchants. Although this social stratification was imposed and made hereditary, many groups in Japan lay outside these 4 tiers. Most importantly, the imperial family, court nobility, and Shinto-Buddhist priesthood were ranked above the samurai. There also existed the burakumin (部落民) group, a bottom caste that lay below the shinokosho and worked in undesirable occupations like executioners and butchers. Therefore, the “four occupations” system was already hardly all-encompassing. The Sengoku period (戦国時代) shook the system as the decentralized, warring nature of Japan enabled social mobility between different classes, particularly with the rising number and importance of the ashigaru, who as infantry often came from the peasant class. The most notable example of this mobility was Oda general and councilor Hashiba Hideyoshi, who was originally a peasant and whose descendants would be high-ranking hereditary vassals of the Oda clan. Additionally, cities like Sakai and Imai-cho (今井町) in Yamato province were run by councils of wealthy merchants as opposed to samurai or the nobility, creating a paradox of the supposedly lower caste running the cities through their wealth.
18th century depiction of the “shinokosho” system (Left to right-farmer, merchant, samurai, artisan)
The formation of the Oda Chancellorate would continue this trend and begin to slowly dismantle the “shinokosho” system. Azuchi’s policies of overseas trade expansionism altered the old economic dynamics of the realm as merchants and artisans increasingly became more prosperous and critical to not only the economy but Japan’s geopolitical prestige as well. Intermarriage between some samurai families and high-profile mercantile families even began to become a thing. Farmers and peasants, however, maintained cultural prestige in Japanese society, being the source of most samurai stipends and driving agricultural productivity in the countryside. Their place in Japanese society enabled the continuation of the philosophical ideal of the Confucian concept, particularly in the Kanto, Oshu, and Chubu regions of Japan. Additionally, the burakumin social class continued to be as oppressed as they were in previous eras. Nevertheless, by the 1630s, socioeconomic changes engineered by Oda policies had hollowed out much of the practical application of the system, and functionally the merchant and artisan castes were treated equal to farmers.
Meanwhile, on Bireitou, the system was largely irrelevant as the social structure on the island developed due to Japanese presence on the island originating from commercial purposes as well as the great linguistic, ethnic, and cultural diversity of the island’s natives and immigrants. Confucian-influenced Chinese immigrants formed the core of many newly founded agricultural settlements in the western lowlands, cultivating a level of self-importance stemming from the “four occupations'' ideal, but were nevertheless relegated as a lower class due to the greater prominence of merchants and other seafaring enterprisers in Bireitou and greater social distinction found in language and ethnicity rather than occupation.
Beyond breaking centuries-long social structures, the same external trends began to create an East-West cultural divide within the home islands, as Japan Gifu and westwards interacted with foreign merchants and realms much more than the eastern half through commercial activity and sociopolitical interactions. Nearly all trade conducted at ports in the East, by contrast, was domestic and foreign goods came either through ships from Sakai or through the recently built networks of roads and highways. As a result, none of the Eastern urban centers like Kamakura and Kanazawa experienced the dynamic transformations those in the western half like Sakai, Yamaguchi, or Gifu underwent despite similar political and economic reforms enacted after the unification of Japan. Thus, the “shinokosho” system remained more intact in the East compared to the West. Kirishitans of all stripes and adherences would also remain overwhelmingly concentrated in the western half of the realm. Finally, the greater percentage of tozama daimyo in the Oshu and Kanto regions as opposed to the greater predominance and distribution of fudai, or direct vassals, westwards. The greater degree of political autonomy that resulted aside from the separate governance of the Kanto region under the Kamakura Tandai insulated these areas from Azuchi’s administrative reforms to a degree despite unification and the ever-increasing centralization of Japan under the Oda, preserving local political norms in the process. Although the entire realm was feeling the effects of its actions and interactions and hyperlocal identities remained strong throughout, a East-West sociopolitical divide began to become evident, especially by the 1630s.
One cultural phenomenon almost equally felt throughout the home islands was that of the tea ceremony. Also known as chado or sado (茶道), the tea ceremony originated during the Muromachi period (室町時代) in the form of tea-tasting parties held by the upper classes guessing the regional origin of a particular tea. During the height of the Higashiyama cultural period of the late 15th century, defined by former shogun Ashikaga Yoshimasa (足利義政) and his patronage from his villa at Higashiyama (東山) in Kyoto, his tea master, Murata Jukou (村田珠光), began to develop the wabi-cha (侘茶) style of sado, which emphasized a subdued, austere taste and simple, refined wares as opposed to more elaborate and expensive Chinese wares. This process would continue through his disciple Takeno Jouou (武野紹鷗) and then to his disciple Sen Soueki, who would develop many sado implements and standards and popularize the wabi-cha style of sado throughout the entire realm. Soueki’s occupation as a successful merchant in Sakai would first spread sado among the wealthy merchants in the city before becoming Oda Nobunaga’s tea master in 1579, a position he would hold until 1593 [1] , when he retired before passing 3 years later. He also had many disciples who were prominent daimyo, from Nagaoka Tadaoki to Nobunaga’s younger brother Nagamasu. These men would help spread the tea ceremony beyond Sakai, Kyoto, and Azuchi to more far flung parts of Japan. This spread popularized sado not only among the samurai class but among merchants and even some affluent commoners realmwide. Popularization of sado across all of Japan was aided by the political unification and trade expansion Japan experienced after 1583 as the realm became more interconnected. The dissemination of the practice was so much that it would even take hold in Iriebashi and Japanese-settled parts of Bireitou before beginning to capture the fascination of the indigenous Bireitoans and even some of the Chinese immigrants. The tea ceremony would subsequently also develop into a social gesture, particularly in political settings between different samurai. This would be noted by foreign observers who often first experience exposure to sado through social or political interactions and exchanges, including the Siamese Buddhist monks that visited Kyoto in the 1620s.
Meanwhile, on Bireitou, the system was largely irrelevant as the social structure on the island developed due to Japanese presence on the island originating from commercial purposes as well as the great linguistic, ethnic, and cultural diversity of the island’s natives and immigrants. Confucian-influenced Chinese immigrants formed the core of many newly founded agricultural settlements in the western lowlands, cultivating a level of self-importance stemming from the “four occupations'' ideal, but were nevertheless relegated as a lower class due to the greater prominence of merchants and other seafaring enterprisers in Bireitou and greater social distinction found in language and ethnicity rather than occupation.
Beyond breaking centuries-long social structures, the same external trends began to create an East-West cultural divide within the home islands, as Japan Gifu and westwards interacted with foreign merchants and realms much more than the eastern half through commercial activity and sociopolitical interactions. Nearly all trade conducted at ports in the East, by contrast, was domestic and foreign goods came either through ships from Sakai or through the recently built networks of roads and highways. As a result, none of the Eastern urban centers like Kamakura and Kanazawa experienced the dynamic transformations those in the western half like Sakai, Yamaguchi, or Gifu underwent despite similar political and economic reforms enacted after the unification of Japan. Thus, the “shinokosho” system remained more intact in the East compared to the West. Kirishitans of all stripes and adherences would also remain overwhelmingly concentrated in the western half of the realm. Finally, the greater percentage of tozama daimyo in the Oshu and Kanto regions as opposed to the greater predominance and distribution of fudai, or direct vassals, westwards. The greater degree of political autonomy that resulted aside from the separate governance of the Kanto region under the Kamakura Tandai insulated these areas from Azuchi’s administrative reforms to a degree despite unification and the ever-increasing centralization of Japan under the Oda, preserving local political norms in the process. Although the entire realm was feeling the effects of its actions and interactions and hyperlocal identities remained strong throughout, a East-West sociopolitical divide began to become evident, especially by the 1630s.
One cultural phenomenon almost equally felt throughout the home islands was that of the tea ceremony. Also known as chado or sado (茶道), the tea ceremony originated during the Muromachi period (室町時代) in the form of tea-tasting parties held by the upper classes guessing the regional origin of a particular tea. During the height of the Higashiyama cultural period of the late 15th century, defined by former shogun Ashikaga Yoshimasa (足利義政) and his patronage from his villa at Higashiyama (東山) in Kyoto, his tea master, Murata Jukou (村田珠光), began to develop the wabi-cha (侘茶) style of sado, which emphasized a subdued, austere taste and simple, refined wares as opposed to more elaborate and expensive Chinese wares. This process would continue through his disciple Takeno Jouou (武野紹鷗) and then to his disciple Sen Soueki, who would develop many sado implements and standards and popularize the wabi-cha style of sado throughout the entire realm. Soueki’s occupation as a successful merchant in Sakai would first spread sado among the wealthy merchants in the city before becoming Oda Nobunaga’s tea master in 1579, a position he would hold until 1593 [1] , when he retired before passing 3 years later. He also had many disciples who were prominent daimyo, from Nagaoka Tadaoki to Nobunaga’s younger brother Nagamasu. These men would help spread the tea ceremony beyond Sakai, Kyoto, and Azuchi to more far flung parts of Japan. This spread popularized sado not only among the samurai class but among merchants and even some affluent commoners realmwide. Popularization of sado across all of Japan was aided by the political unification and trade expansion Japan experienced after 1583 as the realm became more interconnected. The dissemination of the practice was so much that it would even take hold in Iriebashi and Japanese-settled parts of Bireitou before beginning to capture the fascination of the indigenous Bireitoans and even some of the Chinese immigrants. The tea ceremony would subsequently also develop into a social gesture, particularly in political settings between different samurai. This would be noted by foreign observers who often first experience exposure to sado through social or political interactions and exchanges, including the Siamese Buddhist monks that visited Kyoto in the 1620s.
Portrait of Sen Soueki
Overall, the changes Japan experienced undermined the existing social structure, enabling those outside the traditional upper classes to attain levels of cultural power and influence using their newfound socioeconomic importance and prestige [2]. This trend also brought the common and upper classes of Japanese society closer together on a cultural level. In turn, Neo-Confucian thought and influence began to decline in Japan, as the realm’s direction and realities increasingly diverged from the philosophy’s ideal society. This decline would leave room for other existing, syncretic, and completely new philosophies and schools of thoughts to take center stage and influence Japan.
[1]: No Hideyoshi, no Sen Soueki committing seppuku. This not happening also keeps the importance of the tea ceremony in political affairs
[2]: Many of these changes are the same ones that occurred IOTL during the Edo Period but over a much longer period of time due to the less abrupt rise of the economic status of merchants and artisans.
[1]: No Hideyoshi, no Sen Soueki committing seppuku. This not happening also keeps the importance of the tea ceremony in political affairs
[2]: Many of these changes are the same ones that occurred IOTL during the Edo Period but over a much longer period of time due to the less abrupt rise of the economic status of merchants and artisans.
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yeah, seeing Japan becoming less conservative is always good because their competitors are changing and innovating a lot. Seeing the Merchants and artisans climbing up the social ladder and seeing Hideyoshi being shown as an example of a peasant that became a daimyo is really cool and shows what Japan's going through.
Also seeing the tea ceremonies being popular as otl makes sense, but I think Japan would still enjoy Chinese ceramics, especially bare Yixing teapots for tea ceremonies, but other Chinese ceramics would still be popular especially due to the Europeans loving that kind of thing.
PS when will we see the Japanese switching to earlier flintlocks?
Considering that the Sengoku Jidai is a clusterfuck...
Well, the Japanese culture is evolving, and unlike OTL, the changes was affected by and affecting the outside world... that being said
P/s: My intention of writing the second part of the previous post was the fact that there is a possibility that the Japanese in the modern day ITTL could be becoming one of if not the main source of historical records in regards to South East Asia historical kingdom, thanks to the trading the Japanese done in the region, but unfortunately I spoke too much and the potential discussion derailed before the train actually departs.
I feel like the late 17th century could be a period of instability, thanks to the developing East-West divide, and the subsequent manifestation of it. How would the divide be reduced, peacefully or not. Whatever it is, any futher mention from here on out of a East-West division will increasingly fills me with a sense of dread thanks to an unexpected (way into the future perhaps) source.
P/s: My intention of writing the second part of the previous post was the fact that there is a possibility that the Japanese in the modern day ITTL could be becoming one of if not the main source of historical records in regards to South East Asia historical kingdom, thanks to the trading the Japanese done in the region, but unfortunately I spoke too much and the potential discussion derailed before the train actually departs.
I think we'd get instability in general as the east becomes more conservative. Maybe we'd get civil war, maybe we would get cliques infighting in the courts of Azuchi, but it wouldn't be just smooth sailing. I do hope we see companies that exploit the fur trade making the lives of the ppl in the north better tho.
Yeah I think ittl know more about the Malay speaking world more than otl, and the various Dakar ppl's of the time.