There probably was, just didn’t have the wavelength to write it I guess
Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)
- Thread starter KingSweden24
- Start date
I'm still trying to figure out what the situation was with the Jews. While it is certainly possible for most uses of wine to be replaced with grape juice in Judaism, it would affect them as well. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seudat_mitzvah#Seudat_Purim for an exception)
The Firm Hand of Freedom: Soft Imperialism by the United States in Latin America 1917-69
"...underscoring the dangers of commodity economies. Rey Sucre, or "King Sugar," was a longtime nickname for the massive and dominant sugar industry in Cuba, the empire of cash crop that had brought so many tens of thousands of enslaved souls to her shores with American support in the 19th century and which still kept Spanish tax coffers well fed. The defeat of Confederate designs on the island and abolition of slavery had, in theory, suggested a different political settlement on the island, perhaps even one that would eventually end with independence, but ironically, at the conclusion of the Great American War and the end of the Confederacy's ability to threaten Cuba with war again, the independence movement of Cuba reached something of a modern nadir.
There were a variety of reasons for this - the death of Jose Marti in 1915, the erosion of funds from exile groups in New York and Tampa due to the war, the rapid growth of the Spanish economy and immigration to Cuba providing a booming industry in the war years - but the chief one, in the end, was sugar, and the total collapse of its prices in early 1917. Sugar had been one of the few commodities not subject to price floors, but rather a price ceiling, during the Great American War due to the costs of the United States to import it from abroad, and Cuban sugar had flowed freely for the first several years as it had before the war, along with imports from Hawaii and Eastern Europe's sugar beet fields. However, during the war, especially in the state of Idaho, the planting of sugar beets had become a huge industry and by 1916 had offset parts of Cuba's export advantage, and the end of the war and signing of the Treaty of Mount Vernon meant that the United States once again had access to imports from the Confederacy of all raw goods - in particular, sugar grown in Louisiana and Florida, the two states least damaged in the war and the two states best positioned to ship product by boat rather than by rail to American markets.
This massive postwar glut of sugar in the United States, combined with a sharp drop of agricultural prices in general, devastated the Cuban economy, which had not yet pivoted to tourism. The trade agreement signed between the United States and Spain also gave the United States preferential access to Caribbean markets alongside the Metropole, meaning that indigenous industry in Cuba was hammered not only by Spanish imports but, as the Yankees pivoted to a consumer postwar economy, American ones as well. All this combined into a grievous depression in the late 1910s, arguably one of the worst in Cuban history, that saw thousands decamp the island for work in Spain and hundreds of others in the 1920s move to New York as the island struggled to recover even when sugar prices spiked again when Germany and France, major sugar beet farming countries, went to war in 1919.
Out of this late 1910s, early 1920s Cuban depression that saw sugar mills, newspapers, banks and so many other businesses shutter came the collapse of the Revolutionary Party and its splintering into factions. The emergent power dynamic that emerged was, ironically, the Liberal Jose Miguel Gomez, who partnered with Mario Garcia Menocal, a staunch conservative on economic matters; both of them were aligned with groups in Spain that were heavily inclined towards centralism but their views veered towards a softer Cuban nationalism than was commonly understood in the Afro-Cuban communities, particularly in the island’s east.
The crux of the views of these once-and-future rivals was that Cuba’s destiny was inherently linked to that of the New World, not to the Spanish Cortes, and that Cuba needed a “new relationship” to Spain that would allow it its prerogatives, a far cry short of the republicanism that had defined men of Marti’s generation and even Gomez’s previous advocacy. But there was a sense that Cuba needed this moment - with the threat of Confederate intervention gone also left the greatest threat to Cuban sovereignty, and for the white landed and business elite of the island, there was a certainty that Afro-Cuban consciousness would look to Haiti again and the anticipated wellspring of freedom in the post-slavery Confederate States and ask why they did not enjoy similar privileges of de facto equality - and what they would demand to get it…”
- The Firm Hand of Freedom: Soft Imperialism by the United States in Latin America 1917-69
(So I’m reading a book on Cuban history and boy is it dark - and the insidious ties between American capital and Cuban labor go way, wayyyyy back to the 1810s)
There were a variety of reasons for this - the death of Jose Marti in 1915, the erosion of funds from exile groups in New York and Tampa due to the war, the rapid growth of the Spanish economy and immigration to Cuba providing a booming industry in the war years - but the chief one, in the end, was sugar, and the total collapse of its prices in early 1917. Sugar had been one of the few commodities not subject to price floors, but rather a price ceiling, during the Great American War due to the costs of the United States to import it from abroad, and Cuban sugar had flowed freely for the first several years as it had before the war, along with imports from Hawaii and Eastern Europe's sugar beet fields. However, during the war, especially in the state of Idaho, the planting of sugar beets had become a huge industry and by 1916 had offset parts of Cuba's export advantage, and the end of the war and signing of the Treaty of Mount Vernon meant that the United States once again had access to imports from the Confederacy of all raw goods - in particular, sugar grown in Louisiana and Florida, the two states least damaged in the war and the two states best positioned to ship product by boat rather than by rail to American markets.
This massive postwar glut of sugar in the United States, combined with a sharp drop of agricultural prices in general, devastated the Cuban economy, which had not yet pivoted to tourism. The trade agreement signed between the United States and Spain also gave the United States preferential access to Caribbean markets alongside the Metropole, meaning that indigenous industry in Cuba was hammered not only by Spanish imports but, as the Yankees pivoted to a consumer postwar economy, American ones as well. All this combined into a grievous depression in the late 1910s, arguably one of the worst in Cuban history, that saw thousands decamp the island for work in Spain and hundreds of others in the 1920s move to New York as the island struggled to recover even when sugar prices spiked again when Germany and France, major sugar beet farming countries, went to war in 1919.
Out of this late 1910s, early 1920s Cuban depression that saw sugar mills, newspapers, banks and so many other businesses shutter came the collapse of the Revolutionary Party and its splintering into factions. The emergent power dynamic that emerged was, ironically, the Liberal Jose Miguel Gomez, who partnered with Mario Garcia Menocal, a staunch conservative on economic matters; both of them were aligned with groups in Spain that were heavily inclined towards centralism but their views veered towards a softer Cuban nationalism than was commonly understood in the Afro-Cuban communities, particularly in the island’s east.
The crux of the views of these once-and-future rivals was that Cuba’s destiny was inherently linked to that of the New World, not to the Spanish Cortes, and that Cuba needed a “new relationship” to Spain that would allow it its prerogatives, a far cry short of the republicanism that had defined men of Marti’s generation and even Gomez’s previous advocacy. But there was a sense that Cuba needed this moment - with the threat of Confederate intervention gone also left the greatest threat to Cuban sovereignty, and for the white landed and business elite of the island, there was a certainty that Afro-Cuban consciousness would look to Haiti again and the anticipated wellspring of freedom in the post-slavery Confederate States and ask why they did not enjoy similar privileges of de facto equality - and what they would demand to get it…”
- The Firm Hand of Freedom: Soft Imperialism by the United States in Latin America 1917-69
(So I’m reading a book on Cuban history and boy is it dark - and the insidious ties between American capital and Cuban labor go way, wayyyyy back to the 1810s)
Are we still getting super mobbed up Cuba, a la much of Godfather II, ITTL? Feels like the factors that led the Mafia to set up shop in Havana in the early 20th Century are still there more or less.
The phrase "Look to Haiti" being used unironically indicates how different this TL is.
Many of those factors, though it won’t be quite that extreme - in part because Miami is right there, and there are ITTL a lot of factors that make Miami more appealing than Havana (for instance, pseudo-warlordism and crackpot governance)
Haha - well, that’s cribbed a bit from the book I’m reading. The ghosts of 1803 haunted the Caribbean for a long timeThe phrase "Look to Haiti" being used unironically indicates how different this TL is.
Okay, color me interested: what's the book?! I always have this idea for a timeline focused on the state of Louisiana (or, well, Orleans in the ATL) and Cuba would play a periphery part. So I'm always up to learn more!
Yup. The best revenge will be if living in Port-au-Prince during the 1920s would be better than living in Paris.
We keep hearing about Huey Long, but I want to know who the Sugar Warlord (Sugar Daddy?) of postwar Florida will be.
On the flip side, I think it might be easier for the Mafia/their legit front men to convince Americans to vacation in Cuba as opposed to the CSA, which depending on the era could have frosty relations with the USA, thus potentially discouraging visits.
A wierd geographic thought about the Confederacy at this point. I'm pretty sure the Miami area is the farthest point in the Confederacy from its state capital or for that matter from *any* state Capital I think in OTL US Lower 48, both the UP of Michigan and El Paso have it beat (and Las Vegas?). And also closer to Havana and Nassau than its own state capital.
Note, I fully expect Key West to fulfill the extra-territoriality role that Gitmo does iOTL.
It also feels like with the exception of being used as a part of the plan leading to the Battle of Hilton Head that not much has changed in either Bermuda or the Bahamas iTTL, but as long as Britain isn't rolling all 1s, I don't expect much change in the isolated "Islands" that Britain controls. (I'm including Gibraltar in the islands of the Empire.)
I am thinking how many commodity producers are going to be hit by the loss in military orders from the US/CS/Mexico.
Cuba: An American History
Rough as the CEW will be for France, it won't be quite that rough, lol
Duncan U. Fletcher (what a great name) is a Senator, so I'll need to do some research on Florida to identify the proper Sugar Daddy haha
That's... a good point, actually.
I wouldn't say that Havana will have no Mafia influences, especially ITTL where the Mafia stays powerful for somewhat longer. And the interplay between tourism and organized crime is a complicated one (who do you think really owns all those big resorts in Cancun and Cabo San Lucas, after all? Hint hint)
But the relationship between Cuba and the USA sans a Florida as a basing ground is sufficiently altered that its unlikely you'd see quite the same Mafia state emerge in Havana, and more of the org crime is likely to be indigenous to Cuba rather than the Giancana syndicate. So there'll be plenty of mobsters and tourists in Havana, but plenty in Miami, too, though Miami's economy will be more dependent on fluctuations in US-CS relations.
Yeah, I certainly can't think of anything that would have markedly changed the Bahamas or Bermuda
A lot - that's a big part of what's causing postwar roils in the Americas, whereas Europe's more advanced industries stick the landing better.
Honestly, it feels like Syndicalism and Integralism while *somewhat* fulfilling the roles of OTL Communism and Fascism they seem to have somewhat less of an international Proselytism. Syndicalism can, but it seems somewhat unwieldy to impose equivalently to the USSR doing so in Eastern Europe and even more foreign to try to bring into existence in primarily Agricultural countries (like OTL efforts in Vietnam, Malaysia or most of Africa), on the other hand, I'm trying to figure out what non-Catholic Integralism looks like and both WMIT USA and the LDS offshoots in various TL and those seem closer to pure Theocracies. (Maybe a Japan with a Horthy like regent and where the Army and Navy behave?)
So I'll be interested in where on the Political spectrum the anti-colonialist efforts in Africa and Asia come from. The Philippines seems to be doing *some* lifting there, the question is how much is the Catholicism of the Philippines make it a bad model for Burma or Togo.
On a *completely* different issue. the Dutch Hunger winter helped diagnose what Celiac Disease is. I don't expect the losers in the CEW to see that level of Hunger, so I could see anything from it being figured out in the Confederacy in the next year in the story or still being a Mystery in the 21st century.
So I'll be interested in where on the Political spectrum the anti-colonialist efforts in Africa and Asia come from. The Philippines seems to be doing *some* lifting there, the question is how much is the Catholicism of the Philippines make it a bad model for Burma or Togo.
On a *completely* different issue. the Dutch Hunger winter helped diagnose what Celiac Disease is. I don't expect the losers in the CEW to see that level of Hunger, so I could see anything from it being figured out in the Confederacy in the next year in the story or still being a Mystery in the 21st century.
Thanks! I'll give that a look
You know, Sidney Johnston Catts would be an interesting choice. In OTL he was a Dem who ran as the Prohibitionist candidate and won the governorship - he was a reformer, but also an anti-Catholic crusader, racist as all get out (as one would expect from the time and place), refused to denounce lynchings and was just such a swell guy. Furthermore, he became involved in numerous legal issues both during and after his governorship.
Having said all of that though, he was originally born out of state (Georgia, I believe) and I'm not sure how great his business and political accume was - he tried for the Senate after he was term limited in the governorship, and ran headfirst into the better liked Fletcher.
These are some great points. I’d say part of the advantage in Asia right now is that Bonifacismo is vague enough to be broadly anti-colonial and you can project whatever you want on it; eventually, Tridenism of the Sun Yat Sen variety probably starts to become more directly inspirational.
Because, no, there’s not really much for syndicalism to do for poor agrarian societies. Some kind of Maoist-like ideology probably emerges but is not directly associated with communism even if it’s very much of the left.
I’ll look him up, thanks!
All is on the table for Furstenburg
Pulitzer Prize winner....
wow!
and released 18 months ago.
Hell, even I want to know more.
The argument against annexation last time around was that it would antagonize France forever, and I very much doubt that’s gonna hold back the Germans when it led to war nonetheless.
I don’t read a lot of nonfiction usually but it got me to set down Boys in the Boat and I’ve been hooked
Bingo. Well summarized!